Americans sure love their war crimes! Indiscriminately killing civilians is how they've gotten past, present and future terrorist attacks. I can't imagine the parents of the children they keep on killing (or maiming, or otherwise) standing by and watching. People wouldn't necessarily need to wait for their country's army to do something when they've got nothing significant left to lose.
What was the reason for those protests? Was it perhaps economic hardship brought about by US sanctions? How much is the US liable for the suffering of the Iranian people?
(A lot, is the answer)
That doesn't excuse the Iranian regime, but the US is not exactly helping, is it.
It was hardship brought on by not attempting to address the problems. Sanctions made things a bit worse but if Iran put effort into ensuring there was fresh water instead of funding terrorists and building missles things would have been a lot better for the people. (And likely no senctions for those things)
A bit worse? The sanctions directly brought about this. Scott Bessent admitted -- unprompted -- that the purpose of the sanctions was to destroy the Iranian economy.
I'm not saying the regime is good. It's not. It's terrible. But that does not change what the US has done.
The US has consistently made the suffering in Iran worse over the years. And let's not forget that the US and the British caused the Islamic revolutionaries to come into power by installing a puppet Shah that was deeply unpopular.
Why, that's why you don't do genocide half-heartedly, you need to go all in, roll up your sleeves and really get down to work! Can't get a swarm of radicalized people if there is no people left to get radicalized.
I find the sum of all 3d printing tools and consumables required to build something useful (i.e. drawer inserts) a lot cheaper than the sum of all wood tools and consumables.
Sounds a lot like nagging [0] with some trick wording [1] in the nag.
I think the website is missing a dark pattern here, spray-and-pray, which is throwing as many reincarnations of the same thing as possible, hoping one eventually sticks.
The commenter you replied to seems to be oblivious to the fact that this act, described in the article, is merely a consequence of the war they started.
Iranian hackers have been at place for quite some time beforehand.
And it's not a war started, its a "war" responding to decades of heinous, vicious, deadly funding of terrorist organizations, and bombing of innocent civilians.
Defending Iran is akin to defending a serial murderer. Or complaining that the serial murdered got shot while resisting arrest. Ridiculous.
I sincerely hope the decent people of Iran do get rid of this ridiculous, religiously ran and controlled state.
The US killed many, many more civilians accross the world that Iran ever did. Yet you don't seem to care about that, why?
> And it's not a war started, its a "war" responding to decades of heinous, vicious, deadly funding of terrorist organizations, and bombing of innocent civilians.
As if the US hadn't been antagonizing Iran for decades. Trump broke the nuclear agreements (which Iran had been following), then refused to negotiate new ones, then joined Israel in their bloodlust for muslim blood. This war is aimless, and only serves to radicalize the Iranian people against Israel and the US. Which will inevitably result in even more bloodshed down the line.
> Trump broke the nuclear agreements (which Iran had been following), then refused to negotiate new ones
This is the most head-slapping part of this whole situation. We had a nuclear deal and he pulled the US out of it for no good reason (my read: because he just hates Obama that much that anything he did he wanted to undo). This situation is 100% on this president.
That's why they've been hitting residential buildings and hotels as well? They assume that because their proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) hide in civilian structures, so does the US army?
All these attempts to justify Iranian terror demonstrate just how deep Qatari influence online has been. And even Qatar is being attacked by Iran now.
Is Hezbollah hiding in the elementary school that got bombed? Perhaps that’s where the Iranian nuclear research was done?
We attacked them. Full stop. And as far as I can tell we haven’t given them any conditions for when we will stop bombing them. In what moral framework do you have to just accept another sovereign, a vastly more powerful one, invading your country without fighting back?
Thank you for the link. AlJazeera is blocked in my country, but I was able to read it. Why is the school called Shajareh Tayyebeh, Arabic for Good Tree? Don't the Iranians speak Persian? Why an Arabic name?
I can't guess what the USA wants other than a distraction from the raping-of- children saga, but I bet Israel would settle for "we acknowledge your right to exist and won't fund or encourage organisations that plan to harm you."
Who in your opinion sets the moral framework for defending oneself against an enemy which has sworn genocide and proven capable of destroying entire peaceful villages along their borders?
Let's re-frame this: what behaviour do you think is beyond the pale for any military?
Then, in you heart of hearts, if Israel's IDF ever did that, would you condemn them and demand sanctions, arrest, and imprisonment?
If not, then this is a non-falsifiable situation: you are for Israel not matter what, because it's your parent's tribe.
So when you are making the list of no-nos above, note that the IDF is already past starving child civilians of food aid and bombing entire residential buildings in Iran.
So I'm not sure that behaviour you could find that's beyond the pale.
The rest of us have lines we will not cross, regardless of what our enemies do to us; it's the slow march of civilisation.
The IDF did not starve civilians - that lie has already been disproven. I know that you'd love to repeat it until history records it, but by no objective measure was there famine nor starvation in Gaza. Other than the starvation of Hamas' hostages.
The images of "starving children" were images of children with other medical conditions. The UN reports used a metric that considered starvation at HALF the threshold used in every other conflict zone, and even with that metric only found "evidence" in a single location once.
I accept the bombing of buildings which house those who have declared "Death to America, Death to Israel", and then have proceeded to bomb apartment buildings in Beit Shemesh.
@dang: you've banned members from this forum before for messy threads merely discussing apartheid. Surely advocating for war crimes — that the US itself considers crimes — is beyond the pale?
Why should Israel have a right to exist? And under what parameters? Within which borders? Who gets citizenship?
Surely there's no moral case to be made for Israel having a right to exist in its current religious ethnostate form? People who presumably should have citizenship due to their ties to the land area are excluded because they believe in the wrong ancient delusions.
There are at least three basic answers to that question, depending upon one's worldview.
1. Israel does not have a right to exist, in fact no state has "a right to exist".
2. Israel has a right to exist because her citizens successfully defend her from those who wish her not to exist.
3. Israel has a right to exist because the UN declared it.
>>> random.randrange(1,4)
3
That's the tough one, but I'll answer under that worldview for the remainder of the reply...
> And under what parameters?
Under the parameters established by her founders, and the UN, and those established by her neighbouring states.
From the Israeli declaration of independence:
"WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness"
- https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)
From the neighbouring states:
"No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel."
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Arab_League_summit
Need I remind you that seven nations attacked Israel on the day of her independence? That attack caused a million and a half people to become refugees - both Arabs in the holy land and Jews in the rest of the middle east. It also moved the lines of control from the UN partition plan lines to the 1948 cease fire lines - which far favoured the Jewish state and extended in some places to the internationally recognised borders of Mandatory Palestine.
> Within which borders?
Within the borders of the predecessor state, Mandatory Palestine, just like all other newly-established states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uti_possidetis_juris). Had the Arabs founded an Arab state on the remaining lands of Mandatory Palestine then I would argue that Israel should be established only on the land allocated by the UN and the land lost by the Arabs in their failed war. But the Arabs never established a state there.
> Who gets citizenship?
The people who live within the borders of the new state, and those whom the state determines are eligible for immigration. Just like every other state.
In other words, there is no reason to treat Israel any differently than any other state on the planet.
Negotiations during which the Iranians continuously stalled and continued their nuclear work. The threat of attack was part of the US negotiation strategy, and the Iranians thought they would call the "bluff". They were wrong.
They have been chanting "down with America" - that does not mean "murder every single person in America with their missiles (which can't reach America)"
"Death to" is a mistranslation of "marg bar", a phrase that is also applied to traffic, and inflation.
Do the Iranians want to kill all traffic and all... inflation?
I'm grant you that I do not speak Persian, but I do speak Arabic and Hebrew. In Arabic the phrase موت لامريكا is common enough. And this Hebrew sign in Tehran says "prepare your coffins":
So I do appreciate you educating me on the literal meaning of the Persian phrase, yet I dispute your interpretation that they state no intention of murdering us. Quite the opposite, the more I research it the more Hebrew banners in Tehran I see and I can conclude not only are they capable of murdering myself and my children, they have intent as well.
Israel funded terrorist organisations in Syria, and in Palestine itself - most famously the group Hamas.
Many of the terrorist groups Iran funds operates in areas illegally occupied by the Israeli military, making them legitimate resistance fighters.
And Israel itself is a terrorist state - they achieved independence via the actions of Jewish terrorist groups in Palestine like Igrun, Lehi - which included several future Israeli Prime Ministers as members.
So no, I do not trust Israel with nukes - they should be disarmed immediately.
Israel supports Hamas financially several times, a.) so they can justify a crackdown on Palestinians b.) to weaken the other political groups in Palestine that wanted to negotiate with Israel so only the most radical group is left to represent Palestinians, right wing Israeli assassinated the prime minister who negotiated a peace deal with PLO and the right wing is now in represented at top o government in Israel.
At the end of the day you have to understand the reality that Iran is a sovereign nation that is going to defend itself. And yes they are hitting residential buildings and hotels with US military personnel present. None of this is terrorism, this is a nation state retaliating after an attack on their nation, you have to understand this basic concept, actions have consequences.
This is not propaganda, you are just willfully ignorant. If you want to destroy Iran you have to take retaliation into account, everything else is just propaganda, what do you expect them to do instead? Just lie down and take it?
You can't use retaliation of the nation you attacked as justification of why the attack was justified, its circular logic, this is textbook propaganda you are repeating.
I genuinetely do not think Hasbara like this works anymore. The overton window on this has irrevocably shifted since 2023 and it would be a better strategy for you to live within this new reality, rather than making ludicrous claims that the middle eastern country most vehemently trying to shape western views on the region is... Qatar. It just comes across as an obvious projection, and only encourages sentiment that has a real potential to become harmful to you personally.
That is, unless posts like thos are designed to encourage that sentiment, which I sometimes suspect.
I think this shifted overtone window has partially to do with why they started this war to begin with, they see the writing on the wall and their window of opportunity is closing. Trump is at historic lows in polling [1]; 65% of democrats now sympathize more with Palestinians over Israelis (17%) [2]. HN is just a generally reactionary place, I wouldn't read to much into that.
Instead of claiming "whatever bullshit you come up with" at me, go search for Qatari influence in English too. I prefer Qatari sources in Arabic because then one cannot claim a biased source, but for those who can not read Arabic there is ample English language discussion.
Here's just the first two Google results, enjoy, there's quite a few more from both sides of the US political divide if you would like to start nitpicking sources.
Everybody got flagged in this thread lol What is your argument again? Is it that Qatar used propaganda to make americans anti-war in the middle east or something? I don't even know at this point.
> They assume that because their proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) hide in civilian structures, so does the US army?
> Two US Defense Department employees were wounded when an Iranian drone struck a hotel in Bahrain's capital Manama, The Washington Post reported Monday.
Are you suggesting that two people sleeping in a hotel makes the hotel a valid military target? Because people have been telling Israelis for years that hospitals, mosques, residential apartment buildings, and schools from which rockets are stored and launched are not valid military targets, even when these activities are supported by the building administration and the rocket handlers are clearly visible.
I mean if you want to put your geopolitical blinkers on, sure...but how to beat America is old news at this point: cause casualties however you can, and wait for the US to give up.
Complain about it all you want but what are you going to do? The US is already bombing them.
Perhaps all of this goes into the big bucket labelled "war is expensive and unpredictable, maybe try diplomacy?"
Which the current administration has made a note of promptly tearing up prior agreements with everyone anyway so...whoops I guess.
They can make it very expensive though. And they can't negotiate, given it's the second time they are attacked during negotiations, so really, what can they do? Cause the most chaos possible around them, strain the relationships between the US and other ME countries, force the US to make a choice about which ally to protect (it will be Saudi Arabia), make the oil price go up and deplete US weapon stocks. If the force the US and Israel to put boots on the ground, they will have won.
In WW-II, the US bombed the hell out of German forces for months on end. That is what people do not understand. The US have the capability to generate bombs indefinitely. There will be no boots on the ground for soldiers (they wish). They will just get pulverised as time goes by. If the US and Israel will think they cannot get to their thick skull they'll simply bomb the oil refineries and let the Iranian regime deal with paychecks from their street goons and fanatics who will eat them alive.
> The US have the capability to generate bombs indefinitely.
The same US which had to re-build and re-open factories to be able to support Ukraine, and had an important shortage of shells for some time?
The same US talking with their allies to build ships for them?
US generals said that their defensive munition is not infinite. Middle Eastern countries said that they have Patriot stockpiles for 4 days.
We're past WWII. Nobody has that capacity anymore. Some of the tech and factories built these gigantic battle cruisers are not present anymore even.
US may, and can pulverize Iran if they want, but it'll be much more expensive than WWII era, because of how interconnected the world is now, and this is how post-WWII world has been designated. Make everyone depend on everyone, and make war very expensive as a result.
The Paris Agreement included an explicit clause allowing parties to exit it after giving notice of withdrawal. It did not go out of effect immediately on Trump's election, but the administration went through the legal procedure.
The NPT has much stricter terms for withdrawal, which in any case Iran has not followed.
(The better and much more relevant analogy would be the JCPOA. That's what happens when the US does foreign policy by "executive agreement" instead of treaty. Foreign countries should not value them more than the paper they're written on.)
Anyone can do whatever they want. I’m just saying sinking a us carrier doesn’t stop the conflict and, instead, makes it 2 or 3 orders of magnitude worse.
You applaud anthropic's choice to enhance mass surveillance of non-US people? If anthropic want mass surveillance, they should limit it to their own country, not to all other countries IMO.
Zero knowledge in such a system requires a minimum of 3 independent parties. There are quite a few solutions out there, I think the most developed ones are online voting systems, because tracking and de duplication is essential.
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