Yes, that's it. It came about after writing a small TUI for a friend to back up their Vimeo library. They liked the simplicity and speed but not having to use the shell. Didn't want to install Ghostty either.
I feel like pricing needs to be included here. I kind of don't care about 10 percentage points if the cost is dramatically higher. Cursor Bugbot is about the same cost but gives 10x the monthly quota of Qodo.
I know this is focused solely on performance, but cost is a major factor here.
This is one of the places where per capita doesn't matter as much as total emissions. We have one planet. The yearly total and cumulative matters the most.
China is by far the leading emitter. Over double of the US as of 2023 (latest available data I can find). China's emissions also aren't falling, they are skyrocketing. The US emissions ARE falling.
The US dominates in cumulative, which is essentially the measure of the total damage done to the planet. The US is doing something about it though. Yearly emissions have been dropping since 2007.
Per capita most definitely matters. Every human is equal, there is no reason why one human has the right to emit much more than another. If we go by your reasoning, then all developing countries should figure out how to raise living standards without consuming more resources so the Americans don’t have to reduce theirs.
You are incorrect that China isn’t doing anything to lower its impact. It’s emissions would be much much much worse for the standard of living increases it achieved without investments in clean energy and EVs, tech that it is exporting abroad to the benefit of the world and to the dismay of America’s petro dollar dependence.
With such thinking, I now get why the rest of the world is beginning to hate America so much.
I didn't say China isn't doing anything. They are rolling out a mind boggling amount of clean energy right now. More than any other country by far. It's honestly incredible scale. It unfortunately isn't keeping up with their emissions though. The data is from 2023. It's very possible that in the last two years China has been able to stabilize emission growth.
I actually disagree a bit on the first part. I think developing countries have a right to have higher per capita emissions as they raise their standard of living and economy where they can get to the point of widely adopting clean energy.
I visited Beijing in April and it was much cleaner than it was before, electric vehicles everywhere, but people were also much richer, before a car was some sort of luxury and now it was just something you could get if you could find a place to park it. It’s hard to describe.
The o the thing to consider is that China isn’t really a full on consumption economy yet, that they develop a lot of infrastructure and make a lot of stuff for export, all that would be counted in per capita emissions even if it wasn’t to the benefit of a per capita member. The infrastructure building is going to slow down someday (like it did in Japan), China should seriously consider its exports next (especially rare earth refining which is really dirty and resource intensive).
> Then China could fracture into 10 separate nations, and their output would sudenly be negliable?
Don't you see the argument goes both ways? If the US merge with a few Africa countries, does it count as an "improvement" in regard of carbon emission?
In the "we only have one planet" angle, I think it's worth considering that China is not just burning coal for domestic purposes for fun. The fossil fuel consumption is an input to some output, a lot of that going abroad.
If China is the factory for all of these products sold in the US (and elsewhere of course), then isn't China just accounting for even more US emissions?
In that sense, some sort of eco-Trump could put all the tariff money into green tech or something, to balance out the exporting of emissions.
Though to be fair, I gotta imagine that... a lot of chinese emissions are purely for domestic purposes.
>If China is the factory for all of these products sold in the US (and elsewhere of course), then isn't China just accounting for even more US emissions?
China can't have it both ways, they are glibly blaming the rest of the world for their emissions while reforesting due to importing timber from rest of the world illegally.
> The Environmental Investigation Agency says: "The immense scale of China's sourcing [of wood] from high-risk regions [of the world] means that a significant proportion of its timber and wood product imports were illegally harvested."
And research by Global Witness last year said there were "worrying" levels of illegality in countries from which China sources more than 80% of its timber.
I'm not talking about China's position, but thinking about texture of the emissions reductions in the rest of the world.
It's probably fairly unknowable what percent of emissions are for products that will be exported back out from China, but I think it's reasonable to say that when I buy some random wooden table from China and import it into Australia (for example), that I am at least somewhat responsible for those emissions, even if per-country emissions data doesn't reflect that!
I don't think this is some free pass for Chinese ecological behavior overall. My general hypothesis has been that at least some part of emissions reductions in the US and Europe are due to outsourcing. I just don't know how much of it is that.
That’s a really great point. Maybe their emission curve is what matters. It’s the measure of if they are investing enough into reducing emissions despite their production needs.
The thing is it's not _their_ production needs if they are the factory of the world.
If the US put a 1000% tariff on Chinese goods tomorrow, emissions in China would likely go down a decent amount, right? But is that an indicator of their production needs? Or the US's consumption patterns?
Not that this is some bilateral thing, there's a lot of people buying a lot of stuff from many places. Just thinking about a very simple example, and how I would like to see quantification on this front, but I don't know how doable it really is.
Theres going to be a very entertaining set of mental gymnastics people will start doing once China's emissions growth peaks and starts falling compared to the US. They're building a lot of renewables, a lot of nuclear plants and are very obviously tooling up to replicate fusion from whoever nails it.
Whereas the US is trying to increase its fossil fuel industry and cancelling renewable projects.
They aren't just building "a lot" of renewables and nuclear, they are building an absolutely mind boggling amount of it. Last year it was more than the rest of the world combined!
Who cares about mental gymnastics. It's a win for literally everyone and I hope you ca see it that way instead. Competition is good. It drives others to keep up.
Despite what the current US govt wants, the economics of solar and other renewables will drive it. Worst they can do is slow it down a bit.
I feel like these background agents still aren't doing what I want from a developer experience perspective. Running in an inaccessible environment that pushes random things to branches that I then have to checkout locally doesn't feel great.
AI coding should be tightly in the inner dev loop! PRs are a bad way to review and iterate on code. They are a last line of defense, not the primary way to develop.
Give me an isolated environment that is one click hooked up to Cursor/VSCode Remote SSH. It should be the default. I can't think of a single time that Claude or any other AI tool nailed the request on the first try (other than trivial things). I always need to touch it up or at least navigate around and validate it in my IDE.
Right, that is closer to what I was hoping this announcement would be. I really just want a (mobile/web) companion to whatever CLI environment I have Claude Code running in. That would perfectly fill in the exact niche missing in my local dev server VM setup I remote into with any combination of SSH, VS Code Remote, or via Web (VS Code Tunnel from vscode.dev and a ttyd remote CLI session in the browser).
It would be great to be able to check in on Claude on a walk or something to make sure it hasn't gone off the rails or send it a quick "LGTM" to keep moving down a large PLAN.md file without being tethered to a keyboard and monitor. I can SSH from my phone but the CLI ergonomics are ... not great with an on screen keyboard, when all it really needs is just needs a simple threaded chat UI.
I've seen a couple Github projects and "Happy Coder" on a Show HN which I haven't got around to setting up yet which seem in the ballpark of what I want, but a first party integration would always be cool.
I tried Happy Coder for a bit. It seemed exactly what I was missing but about 1/2 the time session notifications weren't coming through and the developers of the tool seem busy pushing it off in other directions rather than in making the core functionality bullet-proof so I gave up on it. Unfortunate. Hopefully something else pops up or Anthropic bakes it into their own tooling.
I agree and I also think the problem is deeper than that. It's about not being able to do most code testing and debugging remotely. You can't really test anything remotely really... Its in an ephemeral container without any of your data, just your repo. You can't have the model do npm run dev and browse to see the webpage, click around, etc. You can't compile or run anything heavy, you can't persist data across sessions/days, etc.
I like the idea of background agents running in the cloud but it has to be a more persistent environment. It also has to run on a GUI so it can develop web applications or run the programs we are developing, and run them properly with the GUI and requiring clicking around, typing things etc. Computer use, is what we need. But that would probably be too expensive to serve to the masses with the current models
Definitely sounds cool. But the problem hasn't even been solved locally yet. Distributed microservices, 3rd party dependencies, async callbacks, reasonable test data, unsatisfiable validations, etc. Every company has their own hacked together local testing thing that mostly doesn't work.
That said, maybe this is the turning point where these companies work toward solving it in earnest, since it's a key differentiator of their larger PLATFORM and not just a cost. Heck, if they get something like that working well, I'd pay for it even without the AI!
Edit: that could end up being really slick too if it was able to learn from your teammates and offer guidance. Like when you're checking some e2e UI flows but you need a test item that has some specific detail, it maybe saw how your teammate changed the value or which item they used or created, and can copy it for you. "Hey it looks like you're trying to test this flow. Here's how Chen did it. Want me to guide you through that?" They can't really do that with just CLI, so the web interface could really be a game changer if they take full advantage of it.
What you're describing feels like the next major evolution and is likely years away (and exciting!).
I'm mainly aiming for a good experience with what we have today. Welding an AI agent onto my IDE turned out to be great. The next incremental step feels like being able to parallelize that. I want four concurrent IDEs with AI welded onto it.
Exactly, I want to go to sleep knowing I have an AI working in a computer developing my project. Then wake up to the finished website/program, fully tested top to bottom backend frontend UI etc.
idk, we’ve (humans) gotten this far with them. I don’t think they are the right tool for AI generated code and coding agents though, and that these circles are being forced to fit into those squares. imho it’s time for an AI-native git or something.
PRs work well for what they are. Ship off some changes you're strongly confident about and have another human who has a lot of context read through it and double check you. It's for when you think you've finished your inner loop.
AI is more akin to pair programming with another person sitting next to you. I don't want to ship a PR or even a branch off to someone sitting next to me. I want to discuss and type together in real time.
Agree, each agent creating a PR and then coordinating merges is a pain.
I’d like
- agent to consolidate simple non-conflicting PRs
- faster previews and CI tests (Render currently)
- detect and suggest solutions for merge conflicts
Codex web doesn’t update the PR which is also something to change, maybe a setting, but for web Code agents (?) I’d like the PR once opened to stay open
Also PRs need an overhaul in general. I create lots of speculative agents, if I like the solution I merge, leading to lots of PRs
Thank you. Every time these agentic cloud tools come out, I wonder to myself whether I'm not using them right or misunderstand vs, say, local Cursor development paradigm.
Plus they generate so much noise with all the extra commits and comments that go to everyone in slack and email rather than just me.
I just run the agent directly on separate testing/dev servers via remote-ssh in VS Code to have an IDE to sanity check stuff. Just far simpler than local dev and other nonsense.
this is a great point. The inner / outer loop is big. I think AI pushing PRs is kind of like pushing drafts to the public in social media. I don't want folks seeing PRs and such until I feel good about it. It adds a lot of noise, and increases build costs unless your CI/CD treats them differently which I don't know anyone doing.
Not quite. This doesn't (yet) have an option where you can connect your local IDE to their remote containers to edit files directly. It's more of a fire-and-forget thing where you can eventually suck the resulting code down to your local machine using "claude --teleport ..." - but then it's not running in the cloud any more.
CEO at Ona (formerly Gitpod) here. Every ephemeral environment Ona creates can directly connect to your Desktop IDE for easy handoff. Our team goes from prompt -> iterating in conversation -> VS Code Web -> VS Code Desktop/Cursor depending on task complexity and quality of the agent output. We call this progressive engagement and have written about it here https://ona.com/docs/ona/best-practices#progressive-engageme...
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I wish your site would show me what it actually looks like. It's a lot of words and fancy marketing images and I have no feel for the product. It leaves me unsure if I should invest my time.
I'd love to see a short animation of what it would actually look like to do the core flow. Prompt -> environment creation -> iterating -> popping open VSCode Web -> Popping open Cursor desktop.
Also, a lot of the links on that page you linked me to are broken:
* "manual edits and Ona Agents is very powerful."
* "Ona’s automations.yaml extends it with tasks and services"
* "devcontainer.json describes the tools"
I signed up and tried it with Cursor. It is very close, but still has a lot of rough edges that make it hard to switch:
* Once in Cursor I can't click on modified files or lines and have my IDE jump to it. Very hard to review changes.
* I closed the Ona tab and couldn't figure out how to get it back so I could prompt it again.
* I can't pin the Ona tab to the right like Cursor does
* Is there a way to select lines and add them to context?
* Is there a way I can pick a model?
Yes, but my point is often times I don't want to. Sometimes there are changes I can make it seconds. I don't want to wait 15+ seconds for an AI that might do it wrong or do too much.
Also it isn't always about editing. It is about seeing the surrounding code, navigating around, and ensuring the AI did the right thing in all of the right places.
Huge waste of time. You are being sold a bill of goods whose only purpose is to make you a dumb dev. Like woah, an llm can use cdp!! Who cares. Cant wait till people start waking up to this grift. These things are making people so dumb and a few richer, thats it.
Hey, Kanjun from Imbue here! This is exactly why we built Sculptor (https://imbue.com/sculptor), a desktop UI for Claude Code.
Each agent has its own isolated container. With Pairing Mode, you can sync the agent's code and git state directly into your local Cursor/any IDE so you can instantly validate its work. The sync is bidirectional so your local changes flow back to the agent in realtime.
Happy to answer any questions - I think you'll really like the tight feedback loop :)
Sadly hashbangs are technically limited to:
1) Support only absolute paths, making it necessary to use /usr/bin/env which is in standardized location to look up the uv binary
2) Support only a single argument (everything after the space is passed as a single arg, it's not parsed into multiple args like a shell would), making it necessary to use -S to "S"plit the arguments. It's a feature of env itself, for this very use case.
So there isn't really much to do to make it simpler.
I wasn't really referring to env. I meant change the behavior of uvx. If the first argument passed to uvx is a file path, then execute it exactly the same way as `uv --quiet run --script` does.
Or maybe create a second binary or symlink called `uvs` (short for uv script) that does the same thing.
In some places, yes. South Korea is expected to shrink by 15M in the next 50 years, and to cut in half by 2100. Even with immediate drastic improvements in birth rate, it is expected to shrink significantly.
The frequency/period of the sinusoidal wave you're asking about can be very long. When the Roman Empire collapsed its collapse was in great part due to Rome's inability to reverse a steep, long, secular fertility decline. It took hundreds of years for Rome to go from growth to decline, then hundreds of years for the post-Roman Europe to get back to growth.
When a generation's female cohort is significantly smaller than the preceding generation's female cohort the increase in fertility needed to offset that is enormous relative to the fertility rate that led to the present generation's small female cohort. And the cultural and other reasons for the low fertility rate are difficult to change too. So the likelihood of reversal is very low, and the likelihood of continued female cohort decreases is high, therefore you have to think a severe low fertility patch will last at least two generations, and if the fertility rate right now is half the replacement rate then that bakes in a population reduction of 50% once the current non-fertile generations pass, so several generations down the line. But the risk of three or four generations of below-replacement fertility is pretty high, and that's how you get into multi-centennial periods. Nothing requires that we bounce back, either. We could go extinct just from refusal to reproduce.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. It's an interesting thought.
I will add that us having children completely erased the desire to get a dog. We almost got one just before our first born. Now we can't imagine. I think it's a combination of what you're suggesting, and also because a dog requires a lot of time we just don't have now.
This is a weirdly funny thread. How many theoretical children would you trade for 1 real child? All over a car seat that perhaps prevented 4,000 additional births a year?
I really hope Apple Notes makes this something that's opt-in and I don't have to see. Thankfully it sounds like it is an export only feature.
I think there is a bifurcation of people who like markdown and people who like rich text. And both groups have strong opinions. Apple Notes was my goto rich text editor. Fingers crossed that they aren't making this worse for us.
Related: I switched away from Bear notes because personally I find markdown hideous to look at. This post made me go back and check on it today and it looks like Bear notes now supports hiding markdown right after you type it. This seems like a really good compromise, though I still don't like that I see it when I place my cursor on it. Worth a shot if you're a "never markdown" person like me.
Bear’s implementation is great. One thing I hate about rich text is that it's basically impossible to not inherit the formatting of adjacent text if you move your cursor around, nor is it possible to see the current formatting state. If your cursor is between whitespace and an italic word, will inserted text be normal or italic? Markdown’s formatting characters solve this by creating a boundary that the cursor can be on either side of.
This is a solved problem, but not implemented almost nowhere. Your text cursor can simply show whether text is going to be italic with an indicator. And moving cursor an extra step away from the italicized word will reset the formatting to that of the space char. But also panels in many apps show current formatting in their formatting button state
Interesting, because I find that very intuitive. If my cursor is on or next to formatting, it'll inherit it.
I find formatting after the fact a lot easier too. Bold a line? cmd+shift-right and then cmd+b. Trying to add formatting after the fact with markdown isn't fun. Though many editors try to helpfully insert markdown for you with hotkeys, it often fails on multi-line things.
I know everyone thinks this is a bus, but as a regular bus commuter in the bay area, I think there is room to expand here that a bus can't always meet. A few problems:
* Bus stops are often far from homes and offices
* There’s rarely parking near stops so you can't drive to it
* Routes are fixed and rarely change.
* The process for petitioning for a new stop is painfully slow and done based on rough approximation of demand, community input, budgeting, and other red tape. I can't even guess what data they use to decide.
* Many people can’t or won’t walk long distances to reach it.
* The websites, maps, and schedules for buses are often very bad and hard to interpret
I can see someone like Uber filling a gap here with a shuttle service (not low density cars or SUVs).
* They have hundreds of thousands of users in a metro area.
* Get those users to enter where they live, where they need to go, and roughly at what time.
* They find a group ~30 people with similar locations, routes, destinations, and times to create a route
* It doesn't have to be door to door. Just an acceptable walking distance at both ends.
* Dedicated stops don't have to be approved and built. Just pull over on a major street.
* It is extremely easy to use Uber
No idea if this can be made economical of course. It also sounds like a really hard problem to solve.
It's not a bus. It's an ordinary Uber driver with their own car, with multiple customers and a different, confusing pricing scheme.
It's not Uber buying and operating their own fleet of branded vans, like SuperShuttle.[1]
How does the driver get paid? If it's a regular route, with regular times, it ought to be a regular job paid by the hour, regardless of whether the vehicle is empty or full. But that wouldn't be Uber's gig slavery system.
Is squeezing into the 7th seat in the trunk of an Uber-XL SUV worth the faux-instantaneous nature of this product?
Get the Transit app folks [1], great GPS tracking of the right bus for you, advocate for an efficient well-funded bus/train service in your city and a municipal DOT that doesn't have to host 5 community meetings for every small change in routes.
I think the real remarkable part of all this is how bad city buses are. Everyone knows about them, we’ve all been forced to take one, but cities are so consistently bad at managing them it’s not an option for most people, even if they live near a stop.
It's a problem that intersects with the national issues related to... under-served and poorly integrated people in the population.
National policy needs to do much better on an array of issues that contribute to 'poor public transit experiences'.
Issues like "mentally unbalanced passengers", inebriated, smelly (includes smokers!), overcrowded busses. I know they are rigged for standing room, but that should NOT be the expectation for a ride longer than 10 min outside of extreme crunches like sports games overflow!
Aside from running the correct busses to the places people need to get from and to:
I want the modern version of Star Trek utopia.
* American Dream (home ownership, vaguely near the jobs / family) within reach.
* Jobs that are a good match for worker's skills / family time needs.
* 'Child Care Assistance' - more than just schools, facilities that can help take care of children while parents work, are unexpectedly sick, etc. Daycare+++
* 'Employment Assistance' - connect workers with the best jobs that want them
* Diversion programs to help people with 'issues' that prevent access to jobs overcome VARIOUS issues such as: lack of stable food, lack of stable housing, supplies to keep clean and healthy.
* Recognizing people that aren't helped by current medical technology and social programs and assisting them with possibly contributing in unconventional ways, or simply being taken care of properly if they are cursed very beyond medical help.
Every last bit of that is more than just fixing a transit system.
Society as a whole system needs an approach that remedies and modifies the entire problem from all angles. Including the ones that change where people need to go for jobs and housing.
Everyone wants this. No one knows how to make it happen. Heck, even the TV writers stopped believing in it and they still had access to replicators and transporters for their storytelling.
Compared to Medieval times we might as well be living in a Star Trek "utopia" already. Look at all the technology in a modern apartment: modern insulation and soundproof construction, modern windows, electric lighting, indoor plumbing, stove, air fryer, microwave, laundry pair, computers, phones, TVs, the internet (with unlimited media to consume)...
What we don't have: equality. Medieval peasants can definitely relate to that. Our lords have different titles than theirs and ours have the police instead of their own soldiers. Otherwise, not much has changed. Turns out that human nature doesn't disappear just because we have more resources. People aren't going to give away their own wealth just to lift up their neighbours.
The show Star Trek TNG has a great example it! Captain Picard is better than most people in his world. He also owns a luxurious wine estate in the French countryside. The floor in that society has been raised, absolutely, but there is no ceiling!
Yea, I was gonna say! For every one of OP’s bullet points, there exists a somewhat powerful political force bitterly fighting against it. We can’t have nice things because people in politics really, really don’t want us to have nice things.
"" * 'Employment Assistance' - connect workers with the best jobs that want them ""
^^^ Would someone like to end welfare ('unemployement insurance')? How about just connecting people with useful work! The New Deal was one of the best social welfare programs the US _ever_ did and politicians are allergic to it.
> It's a problem that intersects with the national issues related to... under-served and poorly integrated people in the population.
Every other service seems to manage this problem and operate in diverse communities, regardless of city, state, or national governance. It's specifically city services that fail in this regard, which is incredible, because they're also the only organization which could do something about it. Walmart has no authority to regulate anything, yet they bring low prices to everyone within a convenient distance of almost all Americans.
Orrrr, you can just enforce fare evasion (passively) and mostly solve this problem and solve the other societal problems separately. It’s been tried and it works [1]. I really don’t like everthing bagelling all problems.
It really is impressive at how terrible they manage to make the time/location coverage. My most recent trip I took because I was bored and thought it would be novel to see if my city's buses have improved is a 10 minute drive by car. Bus stop is right by the start and end. And they get for free the wait time until the first bus. It took two hours and three buses to get me to my destination. I was the only rider on every leg so it was actually pretty novel to get a private bus.
Maybe pointing out the obvious but I'd rephrase that to "how bad US city buses are". And I believe it's not only a matter of regulations, but following a whole culture who in general is not exactly in favor of doing anything in collective - or putting the "public" in "public transport". So nice discussion, but to make it happen sustainably, it will take much more than some council meetings.
If you look at it through the lense of buses need to work well enough that poor people can get to work but not so well that they can be easily roaming the city it starts to make more sense.
I just want to point out that your criticism is not disagreeing with the parent post. You can both be right — this can be better than a bus, and uber can be illegally claiming workers as contractors.
Cramming multiple unrelated people who are going a similar way into a regular uber vehicle sounds like uber pool, which has existed for a long time (unless they stopped it, and this is the reintroduction?).
Unless the Uber driver gets to determine the route, stops, and schedule, and preferably price. Then they are, in my opioniin, more than enough of a freelancer. But I have no odea how this product works in actuality.
Many cities in Eastern Europe, Russia, and Central Asia have (or used to have) Marshrutki[0]. These mini-buses and passenger vans don't stop at bus stops but where they are flagged down. You press a button where you want to be let off.
I say some cities used to have them, not because they went out of fashion (though sometimes they did), but because a Marshrutka is a specific type of passenger van, usually an old one not subject to modern safety requirements for economic reasons. Many of the companies operating them have modernized, and they have low-floor accessible shuttle-style buses with air bags and seat belts, including for disabled people, but they still go their route, can be waved down to pick you up, and drop you off when you ask.
There has never been a similar mode of transport in any Western country I've lived in, though I have heard rumors, and apparently, some US states have/had jitneys. Norway may also have something similar in the western tourist towns, because I found buses drop you off where you ask. But perhaps it's a courtesy. UK companies have made some similar efforts[1]. Generally, such mini-buses are not needed in urban areas. But there are areas where either super quick travel from point A to point B is essential and walking to and from a bus stop is unacceptable (airport-rail links and similar), or where there isn't enough demand to run a proper bus service. These could benefit from a taxi bus approach.
Anyway, Marshrutki and their contemporary counterparts address all the issues you've listed.
P.S. The solution for scheduling is the free market. Operators compete for customers, flooding the streets[2] during relevant hours. There may be 20 uncoordinated mini-bus operators, but for the user, the overall experience is that they usually have to wait only a few minutes along the route before waving one down.
I believe they are considered to be filling a niche when public transport sucks. I doubt Norway needs them, they have one of the best public transport system (although I've been to Oslo a loong time ago).
But if a city really invest into public transportation, there's no need in the small routed hailing vans, because they have lower throughput.
E.g. in Bogota a good bus system (they couldn't build a subway because soils) performed better than Busetas (aka Marshrutki). They did dedicated bus lanes for high-speed large buses. Although compared to Bogota, typical US/EU city has way lower ridership I think.
That's true for large urban areas like Oslo. However, the small tourist towns in Vestlandet, Norway, have some shuttle-sized hop-on-hop-off buses. Or at least had them when I last lived there circa 2016. And in Klaipėda, Lithuania, the mini-buses are regulated and integrated into the public transit system. Where there isn't a large urban transit demand, these mini-buses serve a meaningful function.
I think the circumstance that they pop up "when public transport sucks" is seen more in the US. Jitneys are considered "paratransit" there — fundamentally a substitute. In many Eastern European countries, a common issue was that marshrutki cannibalized existing public transport options by duplicating routes (more on that in the Wiki article I linked in my parent comment). They compete more as equals, not fill an under-served market niche.
By the way, a marshrutka serves one of the last NATO-Russia routes[0]; a very meaningful route in both public transit and diplomatic, cultural contexts. I will concede to you that this is a case of "public transport sucks" to the highest degree, on a global scale.
These route taxis are very versatile, and the diversity of how they are used and their relationships with public transport is huge.
These are common in all developing countries. In the Philippines it's called a Jeepney. They even did pop up around NYC, catering to Hispanic neighborhoods IIRC, and have been in various states of legality over the years. I think now they may be somewhat regulated.
At least in the bay area, the main feature is that this is an illegal bus.
Each city council is able to sabotage bus services through their area, and they do. It inflates property values and keeps “undesirable” people out.
This bypasses the intentional sabotage that’s been applied to bay area public transit. Of course, it’ll still be much, much worse than a competent bus system. I wonder how well it will work in other countries.
> This bypasses the intentional sabotage that’s been applied to bay area public transit
I lived there for a long while and I'm genuinely wondering what this is? I feel like there were at least some unintentional secondary effects of certain policies but can't think of anything recent and intentional.
I remember when I lived in Livermore, and there were residents fighting against a BART extension to the city, because they didn’t want “more of those people” around. Likely a similar mentality.
> > This bypasses the intentional sabotage that’s been applied to bay area public transit. Of course, it’ll still be much, much worse than a competent bus system. I wonder how well it will work in other countries.
> Why will it be much much worse?
Off the top of my head:
- Efficiency-wise, it's worse to have two things that do the same thing than to have the one thing work as it's supposed to (keyword being 'supposed to').
- (Overlaps with point 1) Market inefficiencies by having marketing & branding overheads for each service, when a single solution would not need to have it.
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Whilst I agree it would be worse than having an actual competently-run bus system, having no competition causes perverse incentives (both external & internal) to leech into the system & make it incrementally worse.
At the end of the day, it's a sign that's necessary to point out existing failures. Banning this specific sign from existing only allows the failures to worsen, regardless of the intentions behind banning/regulating it out of existence.
I haven't thought about this for quite some time, but I remember the local mass transit, DART, offered shuttle vans if people got together and showed enough interest in people meeting in one spot and being dropped off in one spot. DART provided the driver and van, and the users just paid whatever the fare. This allowed DART to offer service and acted as a trial run on if a full bus route was needed.
Seems like something that whatever transit authority can use as well. Uber just has a better PR department with much larger budgets than metro agencies, so to younger people this probably seems like an original idea.???
It's not about PR budget or whatever. It's about the fact that they have an incredibly easy to use app, with millions of people actively using it, and a ton of software engineers who are really great at logistics problems like this.
Our transit authority hasn't managed to spring this up for us and I'm not confident they have the capability.
FWIW I'm not "younger people". I'm just someone who's been using mass transit to commute for the past 15 years and desperately wants something better. I don't care if it is an original idea. I just want it to exist.
The DART program I remember was (near Seattle) King County metro's Dial A Ride Transit (DART) program which... literally worked that way. I don't know what the fee structure was offhand as at the time in my life I saw a lot of those large vans / mini busses I wasn't a target consumer.
I lived about a mile outside of the DART zone where they were trialing this, if it's the program I'm thinking of. I attempted to use it one time, but had issues with the app. I love the concept though, and hope there's an economically viable way to implement something similar.
The requirement to actually pay will keep much of the riff-raff out. In my local bus system, you theoretically have to pay but the drivers are not going to throw you off the bus if you don't and so the buses all have a few homeless guys who just ride all day.
Don't know what town you live in, but here in Seattle, very few bus routes have homeless people who ride them all day.
The vast majority don't.
The reason transit in this city sucks (still head and shoulders above the vast majority of the US) isn't because there's 12,000+ homeless people living in it[1], it's because the buses don't run frequently enough and because all the fucking single-occupant car traffic turns what would be a 20 minute bus ride into a 40 minute slog, and because you'd be insane to bike for your last-mile.
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[1] Increasing every year, and under the current mayor's tenure, we lost a net of 200 shelter beds.
Yup. The subway works because one need not bother checking timetables. You show up at the station and expect a car. I could totally see interspersing shuttles between buses reducing latency to the point that it leads to an uptick in bus use.
The RapidRide routes actually have hit plausible frequency. I live near the newly opened G line, and can now just walk out to the bus stop assuming there will be one within 10 minutes, usually less. And they’ve given enough dedicated lane space that it is faster than traffic.
Are you assuming people share your prejudice? Who is 'riff-raff'? Maybe I think you are (and vice versa). I've never had a problem with someone who seems to be unhoused (I wouldn't know). I have had problems with people on their phones in big SUVs, or who just feel like being a*holes.
> I've never had a problem with someone who seems to be unhoused (I wouldn't know).
It's not unusual to never have problems with the homeless (especially if you rarely come into contact with them), but your personal experience here is worthless. Especially irrelevant is your experience of people in SUVs with phones. Not knowing if the people around you are homeless is not a sign of open-mindedness, it's a sign of a possible lack of sensitivity.
People who are homeless are going through issues, and are largely being shunned and ignored by the public. They often became homeless because they were impossible to live with. The ones most likely to be around you, in your space, and that you're likely to clock as homeless are the most aggressive, because homeless people with all their marbles generally make an effort not to seem homeless and don't ask strangers for anything. They die quietly, off alone in a corner, unless someone saves them first.
And rationally, which I discovered myself as a homeless teenager 30-some years ago: you'll never meet, or help, the homeless people who aren't pestering you and bothering you and invading your space.
So when visible homeless people are being talked about, there's no reason to completely avoid drawing any conclusions or making any generalizations about them. I feel it's a clumsy attempt to avoid judging people based on their wealth, but there are many other homeless people in the same position as visibly homeless people, but who are not visible. Pretending that the visually homeless are completely indistinguishable from other groups of people is just a form of active neglect. Pretending not to see them does not make them disappear.
Why is yours any more worthwhile? When in cities, I regularly interact with people who you might assume are homeless. I think my direct experience is definitely valuable to the conversation - unless it disagrees with you, of course.
> People who are homeless ...
It's your narrative that is worthless.
> They often became homeless because they were impossible to live with.
Is there some data for that? The leading cause of homelessness, last I saw, was losing your home to medical bills. Anyway, I'm not living with them, just talking at the bus stop or outside the store.
> homeless people with all their marbles generally make an effort not to seem homeless and don't ask strangers for anything
That is certainly untrue. The confused and mentally ill people generally are in their own worlds. The people talking are fine. Maybe if you act with hostility or defensiveness, you get a different response, but I guarantee if you just stop worrying about it and behave decently as you (hopefully) do with anyone else, it's really no issue at all.
> you'll never meet, or help, the homeless people who aren't pestering you and bothering you and invading your space.
You're just making things up, including that homeless people are pestering and bothering me, etc. IME, which is considerable, people who seem homeless are no different than other people, except they are vulnerable and don't dress as well.
> there's no reason to completely avoid drawing any conclusions or making any generalizations about them
There are plenty of very strong reasons to avoid conclusions about people you don't know - you don't know what you are talking about and will harm the people. Generalizations do the same thing, denying people their basic freedom to be themselves and be responsible for their own consequences, not someone else you met a year ago.
It's also a reason my direct experience is valuable, and your generalizations are worthless. Any serious pursuit of knowledge - science, courts, etc. - utterly reject generalizations and require direct observation.
> I feel it's a clumsy attempt to avoid judging people based on their wealth
That part is intentional and not clumsy at all. It avoids dangerous errors and protects vulnerable people. Looking at behavior today, who are the crazy ones - the billionaires or those without homes?
I think what they are talking when they say visible homeless is people that are “chronically homeless” which is people “experiencing homelessness for longer than a year with a serious mental illness, substance use disorder, or physical disability”. [1] These are not people losing their home due to medical bills. Drug addiction motivates panhandling, a way to obtain cash for drugs over social support systems that provide non-cash assistance. Serious mental illness often leads to very visible erratic behavior, either directed to “their own world” or at other people. I can’t speak to you experience, but a small percent of homeless people do harass people for money, or scream nonsense, and end up arrested or in the hospital far more than the vast majority of other homeless people. [2]
I guess I find it hard to believe that you never encounter panhandlers or mentally ill homeless people acting erratically, aggressively, or both. I don’t really understand what you mean by “people who seem homeless are no different than other people, except they are vulnerable and don't dress as well”. Most homeless people dress as well as any other lower income housed person, unless you just mean anyone who looks kind of poor. The people sleeping on park benches in filthy clothes are rarely “no different” than other people, because again, they are almost all dealing with serious physical, mental, or substance abuse problems.
[2] “Participants averaged five hospitalizations, 20 visits to the emergency department, five to psychiatric emergency services, and three to jail in the two years prior to being enrolled. While these are the homeless people who are the most visible to the general public, and to many health care workers, researchers said they represent only about 5 percent to 10 percent of chronically homeless individuals.” https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/09/418546/study-finds-permane...
> I think what they are talking when they say visible homeless is people that are “chronically homeless” which is people “experiencing homelessness for longer than a year with a serious mental illness, substance use disorder, or physical disability”.
I think it's a big leap to try to read their mind, or assume they had some scientific definition in mind.
> I guess I find it hard to believe that you never encounter panhandlers or mentally ill homeless people acting erratically, aggressively, or both.
I've encountered people asking for money; my point is there is no problem. They are just normal people - they might as well be asking for directions or the time. Most are even more passive: They sit on the ground - as if they need to demean themselves to assuage the fears of housed people - and quietly ask while people walk by. A few days ago someone walked up to me and said, 'I'm going to tell you straight - I need $40 for food and shelter tonight'. Again, he might as well be someone behind a deli counter trying to sell me something. And when I pulled out a few dollars and a ten dollar bill came with it, they asked for it directly. I said no, but again it was no problem at all; I never felt threatened. I think people bring their fear with them; every person generally acts like you treat them.
I see people acting aggressively and erratically, but it's to the air. I just give them a wide berth; they never bother me. I wish I could help them but I don't know how.
> unless you just mean anyone who looks kind of poor
That was the point I was making to the other commenter - I don't actually know who is homeless. I don't usually ask people for their housing information.
> The people sleeping on park benches in filthy clothes are rarely “no different” than other people, because again, they are almost all dealing with serious physical, mental, or substance abuse problems.
According to who? Also, plenty of other people deal with those things, but they have resources to support them, including family/friends and money. Lots of high-profile people have those problems.
Some billionaires are very publicly acting out on serious mental health issues.
> a small percent of homeless people do harass people for money, or scream nonsense, and end up arrested or in the hospital far more than the vast majority of other homeless people.
A small percentage of everyone is antisocial or have crippling mental illness. As I said, I've never been threatened by an apparently unhoused person, but I've been threatened by other people.
Once I parked in a spot that apparently someone else wanted. They got out of their car, flashed a badge (I think it was a fire department badge) and threatened to break my windows. Drunk people in bars can be dangerous. Law enforcement can. Another customer once hit me in nice bank office. I've seen threatening people at some sporting events. I'm pretty sure they all had homes.
Have you personally observed it, or are these stories you've heard? Beware of the latter - people love to spread this stuff around. It's like a drug, and more poisonous to the community.
> Current law allows organizations like the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) to issue prohibition orders. BART is the only such agency that has actually issued prohibitions in California, giving out 1,118 such orders from 2019-2022. About 30% of orders issued by BART in 2022 were for battery or threats against riders.
I can't imagine how this is enforced. Clipper cards and cash will get you on any bus without any sort of check to see if you're allowed. There is probably a lot of overlap of people who get banned the people who skip gates and fares.
Walmart and Target probably are a lot less concerned with accuracy than a fare collecting entity would be; any benefit from facial recognition is a plus for them even if it often either is wrong or fails to hit when it should, whereas with toll collection it has to be near 100% to replace other payment mechanism, and nearly never get a false hit (though misses might be okay) to be a convenience method when people are still expected to have a reliable method for on hand for backup.
They probably have all the tech to make them effective but don't want to turn it on for "petty" stuff like this because they don't want normal non-battery inclined customers and the general public to be aware of how surveilled they are on public transit.
I ride the bus and Bart in the San Francisco bay area and I've lived here my entire adult life. It is not fine. About once a week some kind of event happens. Off the top of my head these are things I have experienced both on Bart and AC Transit (though mainly Bart):
* I've been punched twice. Not hard, but an angry person hitting me in the shoulder and the back because they were drunk or high and I guess I looked at them wrong
* I've been shoved out of the way hard probably five separate times?
* People openly smoking crack, smoking weed.
* People high out of their mind. Just on monday some guy had his pants around his ankles high out of his mind swirling around and rubbing up against riders.
* A man shouting and punching the top of the train saying he's going to kill himself
* A man screaming profanities, calling women the c-word, sluts, saying he's going to rape people
* Multiple fights
* Someone getting their phone swiped out of their hand and punched in the head when he tried to chase them.
* I watched someone eat most of a burrito, stand up, turn it upside down and squish it onto the seat.
* I saw a man with a concealed gun tucked behind him into his belt walking around the station looking for someone.
These are definitely some of the worst events, but something on the spectrum of "bad" happens weekly.
There is a very large and rampant amount of bad behavior well below the "jail time" threshold. Even then, the police can't be everywhere all of the time.
Then your city has much larger problem. In my city, public transport is as safe as anywhere else. That is how most people get to work. And kids to school.
Sometimes I do, but its eight times the cost and takes an extra 30 minutes each way. Ideally I would love to take public transportation. I love the idea of it, the economics, the traffic reduction, and the general social benefit. Unfortunately here it comes with some big negatives and they really wear you down after over a decade of it not really changing much.
The problem is, even in a city like San Francisco, that's relatively densely populated AND has a centralized office area - there is A LOT less overlap than you'd think.
The typical bus already runs at loss of 4 dollars for every 1 dollar it takes in in fare.
So you're not going to end up with a much cheaper ride than if you just took a private taxi, but you're going to have a significantly longer trip.
In Toronto, a crowdfunded shuttle service [0] was started to solve this exact problem - lots of people in an area underserved by public transit going to the similar locations at similar times of day.
You didn't mention that you can ban crackheads and the criminally insane from riding the Uber bus if they assault people, shoot up drugs in front of people, smoke crack or meth on the bus or start screaming uncontrollably. Huge in California.
> Get users to enter where they live, where they end to go, and roughly at what time
Friends / people I've seen using uber have "home" and "work" saved. And they have trip history. They likely already have a very good sense of this stuff.
Problem is you don't want necessarily to sell this to people you have frequent/consistent trips for, as you're getting a lot of money from that. Here you want to capture the market of people that aren't using the service, so it's not information from the app
The point to point for number of dollars information that Uber may have is the critical part. Municipal transit organizations are information poor since even if they could use municipal datasets of bluetooth sniffers etc to determine point to point commonalities, they still don't have pricing data to construct a meaningful offering.
My main problem with the local bus system is people keep getting stabbed or otherwise assaulted on busses and at stops, and the last time I took a significant public transit ride it seemed like somebody was going to get stabbed, somebody was smoking, and I'm pretty sure I witnessed two or three drug deals.
What happens if there aren't ~30 people that are going where I'm going from where I am? I don't want to wake up to go to work and find out there is no route for me.
> There’s rarely parking near stops so you can't drive to it
Sorry, but, what the actual fuck? If your bus stop requires parking so you can drive an hour in your car to be driven another hour in a bus, then why bother building a bus stop?
To collect the potential ridership of a dispersed area on the border of an urban space without running bus routes to each persons house. Then they leave their cars in a big parking garage and get off the road, reducing congestion in the urban space.
I guess that it works in very low-density places that are close to the city or something like that. But the problem is that the parking takes up space, so, instead of having some kind of transport hub, where economic activity happens (as is usual next to train stations or bus terminals), you end up with a bus terminal/train station in the middle of nowhere, where the only thing you can do is take your car back to suburbia, and furthering its car dependency. And I'm not sure the regular driver is as city-minded as people here to think of the congestion and all that stuff when they decide between taking the car to the city or to the parking lot and then having to deal with the bus and its schedules.
Also, we're talking about buses, not trains. Unlike a train, you can take a (small) bus into a lower-density area, as it is the case in some cities.
If so that actually sounds really cool. I'd like a dedicated lazygit app in my tray at all times.
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