LinkedIn actually sued HiQ Labs, which scraped LinkedIn to do exactly this (and this extensions scanning is likely a defense mechanism against similar attacks):
> HiQ has created two specific data products targeted at employers: (1) “Keeper,” which informs employers which of their employees are at “risk” of being recruited by competitors; and...
In any case, this lawsuit was discussed a few times on HN at the time, and IIRC there were a fair bit of support for allowing free scraping of "public information." Interesting how the sentiment here has turned these days...
I'm probably missing something. Pre-PMF code by definition is not yet proven to solve a specific pain point, so why does it matter?
I think the crux here is the OP means the "quality of code" doesn't matter until PMF, only the utility matters (to the extent it helps you find PMF), in which case you're both in violent agreement.
But even then you don't need code. I briefly worked for a startup that found PMF by calling people, sending text messages, creating social media posts, measuring engagement to create reports, and sending invoices... all manually. The "code" as such was a bunch of templates in a doc for each of those. Once they actually started getting paid they moved to writing code.
> I briefly worked for a startup that found PMF by calling people, sending text messages, creating social media posts, measuring engagement to create reports, and sending invoices... all manually.
Right, and in that case there is no step-by-step recipe for the product. When all that is implemented in code, that is a set of step-by-step instructions for solving the pain points.
But the manual workflow was the step-by-step recipe the founders iterated on until they got traction; the product that came later was just an embodiment of that workflow as code.
I don't see how that is relevant? I thought the point under discussion was that code does not matter until PMF, and that this would be an illustrative example because there was no code until PMF.
Like, from the users' perspectives they were interacting via text messages both before and after PMF, until later down the line they were migrated to an app. At this point, the change was largely aesthetic, the core idea was the same.
Maybe we're using different definitions of terms like "PMF" here?
> Maybe we're using different definitions of terms like "PMF" here?
No, maybe different perspectives on what "the code matters" means.
In this context, I took it to mean that "code being closed/open does not matter", because the context included leaking the source.
I see you're taking it to mean "code being good/bad does not matter", because the context included a startup product.
We're talking at cross-purposes. There are two assertions here:
1. The code being good/bad (or even existing) is irrelevant.
2. The code being closed is important.
Both those assertions can be true at the same time.
My point is that the code, if it exists, is a recipe for solving some profitable pain point. In that case, there is absolutely no upside to making it open, and so the code does indeed matter.
On that open/close aspect, however, this case is interesting because the leaked code was for a product that was shipped to users' machines in the wild. I'd say that while Anthropic, to your point, absolutely does not want this code leaked, they'd also know very well that any software released this way cannot be considered a competitive advantage for long.
Like, the ability of LLMs to reverse engineer software is well known by now. In fact this blog describes how, even before the leak, they reversed the CLI to patch bugs that Anthropic wouldn't! https://dev.to/kolkov/we-reverse-engineered-12-versions-of-c...
Which may be why other tools in this space have been open sourced. Yet Claude Code hasn't been, so clearly Anthropic wants to protect some rights there. I am very curious about these labs' decision processes when considering what functionality to put in the CLI versus on the servers. That could be a hint about their IP strategy and how they're thinking of moats.
Their technical accomplishments are doubtlessly notable, but does the expected business growth justify this valuation? Honest question, how many things do we really need to send up there that reducing the cost to orbit by 100x will trigger Jevon's paradox and lead to 100x more launches?
I suppose "data centers in space" is the current answer but again, I'm suspicious about its feasibility.
Barring that, until we have another "killer app" besides Starlink, like a giant orbital space station or a moonbase, I'm curious whether there is enough demand.
Personally, I think that valuing businesses by their expected growth is doing really bad things to our society.
We used to value businesses by their current returns, usually dividends paid to shareholders. And we treated any statements about their future plans as interesting but not something anyone should trust.
Now we value stocks on what their price will do in the near future, because the primary return to shareholders is an increase in share price, effectively speculation rather than dividends as the method of returning value to shareholders. So we're incentivising companies to be constantly pushing their share price up (rather than paying decent dividends), which does bad things to both the company and the economy as a whole.
It's not how the system was intended to work and we find ourselves on a treadmill of constant growth that is killing everything good.
Valuing anything by its expected, long term value is just accurate. You'd consider the longevity of, say, a garment when you purchase it. The fact that a car has a lot of miles in it, and therefore will need replacing earlier, is something that any reasonable person will consider with its valuation. We spend money educating children not because of the value of the knowledge that second, but the expected value in the future, including how it'll be useful to learn other things.
So of course we price businesses based on the expected long term value of the shares, as best as we can guess it. But the fact that a company degrades in value as it "overgrows", and engorges itself to become an entity that can't innovate or do anything efficiently in itself goes into the price too. It's not as if a place like IBM doens't want to grow: We just know they won't.
As for speculation rather than dividends, I suspect the real medium why this happens isn't just need for infinite growth: Again, as growth expectations slow down, price moderates: See Paypal vs Stripe. The issue is mroe of a principal-agent situation, as it's very difficult for the median shareholder to, say, force Zuck to stop spending money on the metaverse. And it's not just at the top level: We have a lot of incentives in organizations for people to push for more hires, even when there's very little value to be had. Anyone with a long career can see how much less tense a growing company is that one that has decided its headcount is stuck for a long time, or possibly shrinking.
Principal Agent problems are just much more annoying to put a blame on, because instead of being able to blame some exec all on their own, we get to look at ourselves too, and how what is good for us differs so much from what is good for employers too. The blame is spread thinly, and the behaviors that would lead to more efficient companies are also worse for workers. Then it's suddenly people easier to like, and we don't like where "try to be profitable at the most optimal size" takes us.
Isn't it much simpler than that? Dividends and profits are taxed. Reinvesting to grow revenue isn't. That's why you see companies doing stock buybacks; prevents them from paying taxes, prevents their shareholders from paying taxes.
When humans are involved the waters are pretty muddy and the forecasts of possible growth rosier than reality. Seeing companies losing money hand over first while those same companies get insanely high valuations is common enough that these are obviously short term money grabs before the house of cards collapses.
Imagine valuing Google in early 2000s on its revenue and dividends. It would have nearly zero value, but if you bought then you knew it was going to be one of the biggest companies in the world.
Only boring stable companies that have no growth like Coca-Cola make sense only valuing without further growth.
So speculative fiction, making this basically gambling since the entropy for picking a "winner" is so high. For every Google there's a hundred others that had similarly brilliant ideas that either flopped or failed to monetize. Your anecdotal example is just retroactive survivorship bias.
Agree, but Coca-Cola has plenty of value despite being "boring" and "stable".
The post I was replying to was saying that SpaceX had no growth and therefore little value. That's a mindset that sees companies as speculative assets that are only valuable if their price is set to change in a way that a speculative profit can be made.
SpaceX is making money and doing well, the business fundamentals are working out, and it is valuable because of that. If it turns into a boring, stable, company then that's a good thing - it's less likely to spend $10B of shareholder funds chasing some sci-fi pipe dream (instead of, say, spending $1B testing its assumptions first) in the hope of continuing to be valued as a "high-growth" stock.
Coca Cola indeed has a lot of value its market capitalization is USD 76 billion making it one of the 30 most valuable companies in the world!
The problem with SpaceX is that its valuation is almost entirely driven by its expected future growth. For 2025 SpaceX reported EBITDA of USD 7.5 billion. Other mature aerospace companies (Lockheed, Northman, Airbus, Boeing etc.) are currently valued as ~19x EBITDA (i.e., Market Cap / EBITDA is ~19x). But SpaceX is being valued at 166x EBITDA (USD 1.25 trillion market cap / USD 7.5 billion EBITDA).
What drives this difference in valuation? The answer is quite simple, investors expect the EBITDA to grow and quite rapidly. EBITDA could grow via higher margins (EBITDA margins is EBITDA / Revenue, and for SpaceX it is already a decent 50%), but even at 100% EBITDA margin (i.e., zero operating cost) its valuation multiple would b 83x EBITDA. So the only way to justify SpaceX valuation is if its revenue grows and gorws rapidly.
A quick back of the envelop calculation would shows that investors expect SpaceX revenue to grow at minimum of 65-70% annually for the next 5 years. If the revenue grows at less than that the investors are unlikely to earn a good return on their investment.
Someone else here pointed out that when your biggest asset is a network of thousands of satellites that all have a five-year lifespan, earnings after depreciation is unusually important.
But they made up a bunch of forecasts with rosy future prospects! Think of how profitable they'll be if literally the world model matched their simple growth equations!
From my perspective, it's all just collective gambling when it comes down to it for tech IPOs these days. The market trends are just as much a popularity game as they are anything else.
I agree - I think there should be a rule that prevents anyone who buys a stock from selling it inside the following 2 years or so. And another rule that says every stock must pay a dividend that is a fixed percentage of the company's profit, modifiable only rarely and only by the board of directors. Then anyone buying stocks would have to price them more by the actual present-day dividends and strength of the company in the present day than by what someone else might buy the stock for tomorrow. It would curb speculation and reward responsible companies that are building strength for the long term.
People have been speculating on future returns since forever.
The East India company (an example of capitalism gone very very wrong) was speculatively founded with £4m (in today’s money) and went on to corner half of global trade.
This rose-tinted past of honest capitalism did not exist.
I like your term "honest capitalism". I'm putting that in my back pocket for later.
Capitalism breeds monopolies by rewarding first movers with economic advantages via feedback loop. This is how the system is designed to work, always has been, always will be.
You’re free to invest that way if you want. You might one day wake up and wonder why your Blockbuster Video shares did so badly. But Netflix seemed way overpriced.
Investing in future prospects encourages companies to plan for the future, rather than extract what they can from the present. The stock price is a big motivation for execs, so they can only invest in R&D if the market understands why it makes sense to spend money now in expectation of future profits.
The fact that capitalist systems require unbounded growth for "success" is the real society killer, but crazy valuations is definitely a concrete symptom of this as we reach growth limitations; we're now pushed to "just assume" that the growth is still plausible when it's clearly not to keep the status quo.
> but does the expected business growth justify this valuation?
What was the expected value of investing in a colony in the Americas? It’s very hard to quantify. Most of them failed, but some people got very very rich.
Starlink seems like a no-brainer at this late date, but I remember thinking "He'll never be able to make money from internet satellites. This has to be some kind of scam. Look what happened to Irridium."
Data centers in orbit certainly seem like a pipe dream, but SpaceX certainly has the technology it needs to put them there, and that's a huge competitive advantage (like it was for Starlink) if they do turn out to be feasible.
Star link is not a 'no-brainer' they currently have 9/10 million customers and need 10k star link satelites. One satelite costs 300k and works for 5 years.
To this, they need humans operating the space side, the base station, they need base stations etc.
It is affected by weather as well.
Its not a 'no-brainer' and while space x showed its somehow a business, amazon and others are entering this space now too. So they never had a first mover financial advantage making big bucks and others are coming which will drive customer base and margin down.
And data center in orbit is not just a pipe dream, its stupid on a whole new level. Smart would have been to build like a DC City in the middle of the USA were its super cheap and introducing the necessary infrastructure to it. But alone the R&D, the sending it up there, solving hard space problems just to not being able to touch hardware when it fails, man thats stupidity on a whole new level.
It's stupid, but it mostly works because they also own the sat deployment side of the equation as well.
Dropping the cost to launch (replacement sats etc) by continuing to take greater piece of all total space launches along with large step function capacity refinements with each new rocket generation, means they will continue to push the economics in their favor. $300k/sat might not be worth it, but unless there's a number of back to back unmitigated disasters with their new rockets (totally possible given the cost of getting it wrong) launch costs will continue to drop as they iterate. Even in the worst case where starship never works, they can still salvage and continually refine their current proven designs.
That said, I do not trust their IPO valuations at all. I have enormous respect for what SpaceX has accomplished in such a short time span. When the US government deprioritized further space R&D for all launch vehicles and relied entirely on Russian launch vehicles, I honestly thought it was the end of an era of innovation in space in my (current) country. I'm glad I was wrong to some extent, even if it means an over reliance on the private sector to make further progress.
You may point out that private space ventures sadly have similar problems to ceding to foreign nations, and you wouldn't be wrong. The only silver lining for me is getting to see continued progress in my lifetime. It doesn't take all the sting out of government funding drying up for space launch vehicles, especially when our other budgets like defense are so insane, but I'll take it at face value as a victory for humanity to continually improve space capabilities at scale in any form.
To be absolutely clear, as I make no allusions: we operate in a brutal, broken system from the current financial systems under capitalism in its current form. I'd likewise argue that a billionaire "with character" vs a billionaire with none is still highly problematic. The very existence of billionaires is the root of enough social ills that they should not exist as a class of people at all. Many in that class would even claim to be "doing what's best" in all honesty, when nothing could be further from the truth. Sadly that doesn't mean the ruling class simply ceases to exist because of our collective desires. Nothing short of massive societal change through collective action, something humans have been proven to be really, really bad at time and again, would make any other system possible. I digress..
That said, SpaceX engineers managing to perform impressive feats in manned and unmanned space travel still stands as something to be lauded in my book, even if their leadership deserves none of it. These feats are made _more impressive_ given the poor, child-like behavior found in their particular brand of leadership rather than less.
The employees of SpaceX have made their views about leadership very well known several times now, often with real consequences to themselves and their families. We live in unfortunate times. I'll take my slivers of hope for humanities continued advancement in space travel where I can however, even as it seems the fabric of society further unravels.
Personally I just don’t believe “data centers in space” is a sincere goal. There’s no way any of the cooling benefits or whatever offsets the additional layers of significant construction and maintenance challenges, collision and other environmental risks, and unknown risks.
There’s no way. Every proposal is either a bid for capital via moonshot enthusiasm or a stalking horse for something else, and these days I wouldn’t be surprised if it was orbital weapons platforms in disguise.
I'd like to see lists of "Things Elon Musk will never be able to make money from, but did" and "Things Elon Musk will never be able to make money from, and didn't".
Cult of personality will take you pretty far apparently. So far in Elon's case he could drop his mask of technical genius and become an inordinatly wealthy memelord/shitposter and still have a following.
These days, Google AI overviews regularly add a qualifier to the effect of "... according to this comment on Reddit <link>"
That's basically a UX trick to entirely sidestep being held accountable for the results, but seems sufficient to notify the user about the provenance of the answer to adjust their grains of salt.
I know appeal to authority can be a fallacy, but there is something to be said for appeal to a preponderence of concurring authorities. Multiple notable personalities known for their technical chops have been endorsing AI assisted coding, so it's hard to argue that every one of them lowered their standards.
It's been fun seeing the cognitive dissonance in anti-LLM tech circles as technical giants that they idolized, from Torvalds through Carmack all the way up to Knuth, say something positive about AI, let alone sing praises of it!
I think what you're looking for is patents. I've said it before, but I think patents are the only protection left for innovative software and "the little guy." It always was, really, but it's blindingly apparent today.
Unfortunately, that would be considered heresy on forums like HN, and people will continue to rail against AI and whatever it's causing and patents, instead of realizing that one is the only available leverage against the other.
I have a few patents, including one for a novel machine instruction, and I recall the attorney telling me that one cannot patent mathematics, only methods and systems.
That's true but generally that applies to purely abstract mathematics. If the mathematics is truly abstract, no form of IP anywhere would protect it. That has always been (rightfully IMO) the realm of scientific publications.
Otherwise it's straightforward to say that the mathematics is being applied to achieve a practical goal via execution on a computer. (You'll see the term non-transitory computer-readable media" a lot in claims.) You now have a method and system. Now, caselaw frequently changes things, like the "Alice" decision in the US made it much harder to just patent things done "on a computer" but the underlying principle holds.
I'd also guess if your approach makes something faster or cheaper, it should be possible to show it is non-abstract, because resources like time and costs are not abstract quantities.
Standard disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer! I've just worked with patents extensively.
If we know the outcome of that code, such as whether it caused bugs or data corruption or a crappy UX or tech debt -- which is potentially available in subsequent PR commit messages -- it's still valuable training data.
Probably even more valuable than code that just worked, because evidently we have enough of that and AI code still has issues.
I'm optimistic that AI will actually increase the proportion of good code in the future.
1. IME AI tends to produce good code "in the small." That is, within a function or a file, I've encountered very little sloppy code from AI. Design and architecture is (still) where it quickly tends to go off the rails and needs a heavy hand. However, the bulk of the actual code will tend to be higher quality.
2. Code is now very cheap. And more tests actually results in better results from AI. There is now very little excuse to avoid extensive refactoring to do things "the right way." Especially since there will be a strong incentive to have clean code, because as TFA indicates...
3. Complex, messy code will directly increase token costs. Not just in grokking the codebase, but in the tokens wasted on failed attempts rooted in over-complicated code. Finally, tech debt has a concrete $$$ amount. What can get measured can get fixed, and nothing is easier to measure (or convince execs about!) than $$$.
Right now tokens are extremely cheap because they're heavily subsidized, but when token costs inevitably start ramping up, slop will automatically become less economically viable.
No, unfortunately. In a past life, in response to an uptime crisis, I drove a multi-quarter company-wide initiative to optimize performance and efficiency, and we still did not manage to change the company culture regarding performance.
If it does not move any metrics that execs care about, it doesn't matter.
The industry adage has been "engineer time is much more expensive than machine time," which has been used to excuse way too much bloated and non-performant code shipped to production. However, I think AI can actually change things for the better. Firstly, IME it tends to generate algorithmically efficient code by default, and generally only fails to do so if it lacks the necessary context (e.g. now knowing that an input is sorted.)
More importantly though, now engineer time is machine time. There is now very little excuse to avoid extensive refactoring to do things "the right way."
Huh, layoffs in India? That's weird, because most tech companies are freezing headcount and laying off people in the US and increasing headcount in India. I wonder if that says something about the prospects of NetSuite, which is the org they've been cut from...
When I worked for Oracle in 2015 during my co-op there, IDC was generally just another office. NetSuite may be their focus, but I think they generally cover almost all Oracle software.
https://epic.org/documents/linkedin-corp-v-hiq-labs-inc/
> HiQ has created two specific data products targeted at employers: (1) “Keeper,” which informs employers which of their employees are at “risk” of being recruited by competitors; and...
My hunch is that HiQ simply looked for spikes in activity on LinkedIn as a signal for a job hunt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47566893
In any case, this lawsuit was discussed a few times on HN at the time, and IIRC there were a fair bit of support for allowing free scraping of "public information." Interesting how the sentiment here has turned these days...
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