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Companies with non-stupid people can still do stupid things.

I think the issue with the experimentation is that they still don't have an obvious golden goose yet. Google has been able to fuck around with experiments because search/ads are always still there to carry the team and provide an infinite money spigot, even if the experiments mostly fail. But OpenAI doesn't really have an equivalent for that.


Or perhaps they lucked into chatGPT and the true prowess of the product function is being laid bare. They've had many failed projects now: that shopping stuff, a web browser, Sora.. the success they are having from Codex wasn't an original idea but a classic-case of copying. Have they run out of steam?

Very much possible. What has come out of Meta organically besides Facebook? Its valuation comes predominantly from the assets they acquired + investments yet to be made that build on the acquired assets.

Google is similarly iffy with product development. OAI is better still, marginally, in terms of delivering a more polished experience.

Also I do regard them stupid, simply because they are not following wisdom that was shared decades ago by someone with an incredible batting average when it comes to innovation: start with the customer experience and work backwards to the technology.


I think it's that the biggies are focused on big budget AAA titles that they can sell for $70 or monetize as a FOMO live service, their distinguishing factor compared to indie games is high production values, and they don't feel like they have enough of an advantage in this space, or that they can get enough revenue to justify the huge expenditure of a AAA game.

Basically the same reason many other genres (e.g. roguelites) are dominated by little indie studios.


Plus the studios that have become AAA did it because they implemented interesting ideas, limited by their size constraints. The they get scale and lose the size constraints that caused the to go after interesting ideas.

The real successor to an old AAA series is the new series made by people who played it as kids.


I don't really agree with the author's assertion that things that appeal to women are treated as inherently lesser in general compared to things that appeal to men. I think plenty of things for both genders are treated as silly or shallow or dumb (and that's not entirely inaccurate).

I do wonder if there's data on this, though.


> Games are doomed by femininity. Across media, genres marketed toward women are deemed lesser than their masculine counterparts: romance novels are trashy, chick flicks are shallow, and pop idols are embarrassing.

I was excited to read the love letter to girl games, but this article is more of a disparagement, as if everything that appeals to women is regarded as trash. There are plenty of things made by women for women that are universally loved. There are shallow chick flicks, yes, and they're not trying to be anything more than they are (I love a lot of them). It seems that the author is the one framing all these things as worthless. Is a game worthless because it never hit the (very competitive) mainstream?

The game mentioned in the article, Consume Me, has 922 written reviews, the majority of which are very positive. It has the description: Consume Me is a semi-autobiographical game that depicts dieting, disordered eating, and fatphobia. In my opinion, the art looks cool and the game looks fun enough, but I don't get the impression it was aiming for mainstream appeal. Why should it? Mainstream games are often addiction traps meant to separate players from their money continuously.

This article needs more love and less disparagement.


In the broader context of all things that are marketed for consumerism, I think it's hard to draw any other conclusion than that items marketed to women are generally treated as lesser and often simultaneously sold at a premium price while at the same time often cutting corners in manufacturing.

However, I think it worth pointing out that gaming in general has always been looked at as lesser. That has eased over time as gaming has gone from a rather small, niche activity to a huge industry, but gaming is still looked down upon. Ironically, as it relates to the article, I've read recently that gaming is top on the list of hobbies that are turn offs women have for men they date.


I can read a trashy romance novel on a bus. But if I crack open a skin mag, I am a weirdo.

So which is the lesser?

Actually… false comparison. They make skin mags featuring men too.

So let’s try this:

Woman reading a romance book. Vs a man reading a romance book.

One of those is “weird”.


I don't think either of those would typically be seen as weird? It's certainly less common, but I think the people most likely to find it weird would be those who would think women reading trashy romance novels is weird too.

Your comment has real "a man wears a schoolgirl outfit and a woman wears a schoolgirl outfit, but society doesn't like one - checkmate feminists" logic to it.

The idea you'd start with comparing porn to a book says enough about how honestly you're coming to this conversation and where your starting point was for what romance novels even are.


> I don't really agree with the author's assertion that things that appeal to women are treated as inherently lesser in general compared to things that appeal to men

Really? Do we live in the same society and culture?

It is not called the "patriarchy " ironically, but literally

Things have improved over my life, but until very recently anything not clearly labeled as "for woman" was absolutely designed for men

Most things "designed for women " were more expensive, lower quality and less available

This article is about the history of gaming, a world where the misogyny has been legendary


Not truly universal, but some games like Minecraft get pretty close.

At the same time, it's not realistic to aim for that level of appeal with every game. Most games are going to aim for some sort of niche, just like any other media.


Yep. Majority of games targeted Men because that's who was buying and playing games. That's starting to shift a little.

But there is probably no way to release an Assassin's Creed or Call Of Duty that is going to appeal to women as much as men. That's just not a realistic product goal imo.

Games need to know their audience, and franky they have been very successful targeting young men for decades. My take is that most times they try to target "both men and women" they flop. There are rare exceptions like Baldur's Gate 3 that seem to reach everyone. But it's rare


Even BG3, do we have actual numbers on men vs women playing?

Anecdotal, but me and most of my circle of women friends all love(d) BG3.

Bringing up books is particularly funny considering that reading, writing, editing, and publishing of said books are all things that are dominated by women.

And yeah most romance novels are trashy, but it's not like milslop Clancyfics are better. Most people just want some shallow entertainment and that's fine.


I think we agree largely. My inclusion of Conan there as an example is a stand in for any male dominated slop fiction. Whether that's milslop Tom Clancy stuff, or Warhammer novels, Video Game adaptions, etc. There are millions of books for boys/men that are total slop. So its not really that its books for men vs women. If it was just things that are for men is considered good, then we would be heralding Tom Clancy as a modern day Shakespeare.

Actually Romance is probably a stronger novel genre than say Science Fantasy. The bulk publishers run several lines of novel length stories you can pay for, you can pick how "spicy" is OK for you (some cultures are like "OK, yes I like a plot but there is fucking in this story right? Do NOT cut away from the action"; Other readers will be angry if there's so much as a French kiss between our happily-ever-after couple, even if it's only alluded to and not actually described) as well as themes (Doctors? Werewolves? 18th century Dukes? Billionaires?). If you want pulp science fantasy there aren't a lot of options AFAIK.

On the other hand for shorts science fantasy is much better off. Apparently anybody who can knock out six pages of romance tends to use somebody else's character development as shorthand and so can only publish to AO3 but if you can knock together a decent SF story in six pages that's worth some cash from a pro or semi-pro magazine. Even pretty hard† SF, which is not a common taste, can shift enough copies of a bunch of shorts to make economic sense.

† Science Fiction is graded "harder" the more likely that if you ask "How does that work?" about something in the story the author gets as excited as Hank Green and starts explaining details that may or may not just be facts about our universe which they've incorporated into their story -- as opposed to "A wizard did it" or "That's not important". The diametric opposite of the MST3K mantra.


In terms of popularity absolutely, romantasy is super popular these days. Science fiction and fantasy and science fantasy that appeal to men do okay, but they're definitely not as big.

I'm struggling to think of a medium other than video games that isn't dominated by women.

... and actually, wasn't it the case that before the discovery of the "whale" brain-hack to crack open a few (mostly) men's bank accounts, most of the gaming market was women, for broad definitions of "a game", both by player count and revenue?

Even comic books, I'm pretty sure it's only the American superhero-type comics that're mainly "for guys"—if we expand it to include stuff like manga and Euro comics, then the overall audience leans female, right?

Books are overwhelmingly dominated by women.

> And yeah most romance novels are trashy, but it's not like milslop Clancyfics are better. Most people just want some shallow entertainment and that's fine.

Romance is a poor term because it's used to launder literal werewolf "dubcon" porn under the same label as something like Jane Austen novels. That's probably useful to marketers and for sales, but it makes it impossible to make productive use of the label without further qualifiers for anyone who's trying to actually communicate using the term.

(Meanwhile, yeah, much of what actually sells in that genre [and, again, the term is terrible and overloaded] leans pretty hard into being trash. So does pornhub, or Mr Beast videos, or whatever. So what? It's fine to enjoy them, but it's also fine for folks looking for excellent works of art to mostly avoid them in that search. Meanwhile tons of the modern "literary fiction" and poetry market is by and tuned for an audience of women, in fact I'd be surprised if most of those two categories weren't that, but of course few people actually read lit-fic and especially poetry these days)

----------------------------

BUT, the post is actually less about all that than about how older "girl games" are missing from game history and ignored in things like game-making tutorials and instruction. I'd venture that "boy games" that are similarly low-narrative and/or lean toward being more of an activity than a game (bear with me on the terminology, I'm not interested in turning this post into gatekeeping "what is a game" but I think you understand what I mean, yes? The distinction is here useful) also get left out (I can think of a few[0]), plus the factor where a lot of these were licensed games, which doesn't usually help. I'm not so sure this is as much sexism as that narrative games and clear, tight, goal-oriented game loops are both major factors in games having artistic "staying power" or influence, and in lending themselves to "baby's first video game" tutorials (the latter, especially, for that), and are both really, really hard to accomplish in a video game without resorting to a lot of the usual stuff (violence, largely). This is fundamental to how games are built which is that...

...games necessarily objectify the shit out of literally everything in them. This makes satisfactorily modeling things like realistic relationships extremely hard, and even the games that do it remarkably well are prone to feeling kinda weird as a result (see also: Action Button's rightly-famous Tokimeki Memorial review on Youtube). This is why a lot of relationship-focused games end up as visual novels, where they can be contained to basically a choose-your-own-adventure book format. It's incredibly difficult to build a game-loop around relationship mechanics, and have it be any good at all. This is how you end up with so many "girl games" on the "wrong" side of the "what actually is a video game?" discourse (ugh): it's really hard to build "proper" game mechanics around a lot of the aspects of those "girl games" that appeal to girls in the first place.

Take a dress-up "game": in the most-minimal form (and a form which does exist in the wild!) you're not looking at something that's much more game-like, apparently, than MSPaint. Try to add a dress-up mechanic to a "traditional" game and you end up with something that's a pretty superficial veneer over bog-standard mechanics (stat-boosting item equipping, or something like the FFX-2 "dress sphere" system) or is purely aesthetic and has no "actual" "game" effects. It might be fine to include those anyway! But they're never going to feel especially integral to the game. How do you make dress-up itself a video game? You kinda... don't. You attach it to a sandbox, maybe, and let the player develop their own game (goals, narrative) with it, just like toys in a toybox. Like The Sims... which was a smash-hit among women. Go figure.

Is a toy box a game? Kinda no. Do the contents become vital components of a game when a child plays with them? Often, yes! What is a game? Do we call what kids do with toys, often, "games"? Yep. Is soccer a game? Is chess? Yes and yes. What do soccer and chess have in common with a girl developing stories around her real, actual dolls and such, and dressing them up different ways? Not a fucking lot, but we may use "game" for all of them.

... and so we've come full circle from "romance is a shitty term for a genre of books, and often not very useful for communication": "video game" is a shitty term and often not very useful for communication. The game can be what the player brings to a "toy box" that lets them dress up characters and move them around. Maybe it's fair to call a program "a game" if its main intent is to facilitate that, even if it lacks things like a traditional "game loop" or strong extrinsic goals or motivations (which would let us get away with saying that MSPaint could, situationally, be a toy in service of a game, but doesn't belong in even a very-generously-defined category of "video games" itself, should such distinctions matter for whatever purpose we have in employing the term in the first place).

But a video game can also be an "e-sport", on (kinda) the complete opposite end of a certain spectrum. These things have almost nothing to do with one another aside from that they happen on a computer and are supposed to be some variety of entertaining or fun. "Video games" are both those things, and everything in between, it seems. Not sure how useful it is to lump all that stuff under the one term, but so far efforts to carve out distinctions have been poorly-received, so we're stuck with "all these things are video games even though they're so wildly different that very often their fandoms have no overlap whatsoever, on substantial grounds, not just surface appearance or marketing".

[0] Long ago I had this DOS CAD program for kids called, as I recall, "KidCAD". It was entirely useless for any "serious" work, all it was, was effectively a rudimentary line-rendered digital lego set. Leaning into the kinds of distinctions the linked article uses, I think it's fair to call it a "boy game" in those terms, like a dress-up game is a "girl game". It also had zero built-in narrative and no "game loop" whatsoever. Guess how much attention it gets in game history, and how easy it is to find anything about it now? LOL.


There's definitely some exclusion, but I'm still inclined to agree that interest is the larger determining factor.

Wait, do we have actual gender breakdowns for each of those games?

There are no concrete numbers for Valorant that I know of, but the “Head of Esports Partnerships and Business Development for North America & Oceania Riot Games” Matthew Archambault was quoted saying the Valorant player base is 30-40% women [1]. That seems plausible to me based on my own experience playing Valorant.

[1] https://gamesbeat.com/how-riot-games-wants-to-ensure-that-va...


World of Warcraft has been super successful in its space, and yet Blizzard has failed to make an actual sequel.

> Another example would be Stardew Valley, or Undertale, which had a huge female following (and sales to match) but had to come out of the indie scene, because all these super politically progressive AAA gaming companies somehow are worse at making things that appeal to women than either companies that existed before, or random indies coming from outside the professional world.

Boomer shooters also came out of the indie space. Survival craft hits? Generally indies. There's plenty of genres that, for whatever reason, have been largely ignored by the biggies.


The “sequel” to WoW is already here. Compare modern WoW to the original. It is essentially a sequel, rebooted several times times over.

And The Sims 4 has similarly had a multitude of expansions for it, but the GP is still pointing out there's no sequel, hence me bringing up WoW as the obvious point of comparison.

The Sims expansions aren’t comparable to WoW expansions - Sims exp are optional addons while WoW exp reinvent the entire game over and over again and aren’t optional.

It’s crazy to me that WoW exists but I think there won’t be a WoW 2. But who knows i was wrong about this with StarCraft as well and StarCraft 2 has turned out OK


I’m not even talking about WoW expansions. The game has been so thoroughly modified and improved over the years it is simply not the same game it was at the start, though it retains many familiar elements. Is is essentially a sequel in all but name.

Anything they would add in a sequel is just added to the existing game.


And thanks for that or we'd be inundated with terrible flops ala SimCity disaster of 2013.

Face it, AAA studios just can't do open world and can't do decades-long development cycles, they always immediately lose the plot beneath super-irrelevant graphics, platform deals/restrictions and other crap that's mostly openly detrimental to gameplay and ease of access.

That they insist on treating game development as movie production is my running hypothesis.

Rimworld also has non-inconsiderable female following, but only because it's a) very mod-friendly and b) in continued development for more than 10 years already. Its attention to relationships and interpersonal stuff also helps.


It's both things, really.

But other platforms really are rather pathetic in terms of feature set compared to Steam. Steam has a bajillion features, and it looks like other platforms aren't even trying to compete to provide a good user experience.


> That's why large companies need to encode customer feedback into a system to imitate feedback cycles. Mostly in metrics. That's a very lossy way to capture signal, and leaves a lot to be desired, but so far it doesnt seem like anyone has come up with a better system.

The other thing you can do is having senior leadership occasionally try the product themselves and talk directly to customers (especially ones that have problems).

Often, problems remain because of bureaucratic hurdles, or disputes between different fiefdoms: there's a feature that needs teams X and Y to improve, but it would only help the internal metrics for team X, so team Y doesn't give a shit and drags their feet. Leaders who are sufficiently high in the hierarchy can cut through these sorts of problems if they know and care.


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