Afaik, the borders were open and people commuted to work from the West Bank/Gaza and there were purchasing trips between the areas. That ended with the second Intifada, to protect Israeli civilians from organized attacks.
This closing of the borders created a minor depression in Israel. Not something you do for fun.
The point is, if you start murdering civilians in an organized fashion it is a bit strange to claim victim status from a much milder response. E.g. when Hamas fired (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- and then complain about the return fire killing civilians!
My university classes aren't over for the day, so I can't yet discuss this at length with you, but I find it very odd how you and others in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8406257) are using the same
... and the Palestinian allies in the wars kicked almost all of their Jews out, in total more people than the Palestinians fleeing 1948, not in a burning civil war but in cold blood. Just because of their religion.
Those jews from the Arab world and their children compose the majority of the Israeli population now. And as a fun fact, among all the property stolen from those Jews now living in Israel are land areas larger than Israel...
We might go into how all other land losses from the 2nd world war time period are forgotten, except this one. And that it is kept alive by the refusal to integrate the refugee Palestinians by the Arab countries. The Palestinians got their lives destroyed, to keep the hate living. Arguably the Palestinians' allies did worse to them than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians.
The point is, you write simplified propaganda. Please keep that off my HN. :-(
I agree that Linux has probably more users that Windows here on HN, but when I said "a minority of the viewers", I meant "the viewers of the gnod website".
The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that...
I tried to not read the rest, so I would be tempted to discuss your claims.
(If Hamas organize quite independent cells, it is hard to not claim responsibility when those cells do what they usually do. Hamas really have a long history of making heroes out of people targeting civilians. You might also note that the ones that did a revenge murder will end up in jail. Then we might comment on the hypocrisy of first shooting (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- then blaming the other side when return fire kills civilians...)
To put things into perspective, a couple years ago North Korea sunk, without provocation, a South Korean ship with some >20 soldiers on board. Yet no war started. This year rebels in eastern Ukraine downed a civilian plane with >200 civilians, many from the Netherlands, using weapons supplied to them by Russia. Yet no war started. Not only but two war ships sold by France to Russia, sitting in EU harbours, continued onward with their training of Russian solders. Israel baited the public into hate-mongering, directed that hate at an enemy under false pretence and then began a military campaign that was grotesque (based on facts at: 1,2). The public will never forget this.
I grew up in Israel during the 2nd intifada and watched the west bank empty itself of the majority of the moderate populace with anyone that could move elsewhere doing so. We are watching the same thing happen more slowly now with the Israeli public. First the moderate Israeli became a minority due to the 2nd intifada and then the more liberal have begun a mass exodus both due to the general environment of hate and ridiculous cost of living and work standards (of all OECD countries they work more hours per year than most [3]). The next 15 years is going to be a very interesting time for Israeli politics.
You really handpicked the references about the teenagers. Hamas has admitted it was their cell, it has been discussed in other comments. Sigh... At least be honest about well known facts. :-(
- That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.)
- North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas.
-------
On the subject...
So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.)
Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?
I appreciate this response. You have brought us to the chicken and egg situation. I do believe Israel has reason to respond to artillery. I will also admit that Israel does not have the leverage South Korea does or EU/US do in the examples I gave. The lack of leverage is however partially their doing. 60+ years of occupation can do this. They took away the option of destroying their enemies economy because they already did that. They took away the option of removing their freedom of movement and sense of self-sufficiency because they have already done that. Finally they took away their ability for basic survival as they already starve the citizens of Gaza. So it is likely all they have left is to bomb. I have issue with the false pretence and escalation and I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation.
it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway.
It's just a dead body.
https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784
The stats concerning collateral damage in the previous war are astounding. Looking at only the percentage of children and women killed in comparison of the over all total, one has to be gobsmacked at any excuses. I seem to remember this number alone being more than 50% of all deaths. Considering that they were all likely not "combatants" one should also assume that a significant portion of the male deaths were also not combatant. I highly doubt Israel intended to kill so many innocent people but can't see any other explanation other than just turning a blind eye. It was, without a doubt, grotesque.
I too was surprised by the high civilian casualties given Israel's attempts at warning the population before they strike. I wondered why would people stay in that area if they knew the Israelis were going to strike?
And then I got the answer: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4706/gazan-hamas-war-crime...
"Hamas imposed a curfew: anyone walking out in the street was shot.
That way people had to stay in their homes, even if they were about to get bombed.
Hamas held the whole Gazan population as a human shield." — K., graduate student
My point was you do not even have to trust the UN's estimate that nearly 75% were civilians. You can use logical deduction to come to a number of more than %50 when you consider the number of women and children killed in comparison to the total, any total you find.
It is documented that Hamas shot from civilian areas. If the return fire kills civilians, it isn't the Israelis that broke the war laws.
Also, note the sex distribution: 671 dead men, 218 women.
And among older people, not of front line age, the sex distribution was much more even.
The media are planned more than the weapons in those conflicts. Note that the Israeli side have an interest in few Palestinian civilian dead, Hamas has the opposite interest...
The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank attributed the
abductions to the Qawasameh clan which is notorious for
acting against Hamas's policies and any attempts to reach
an entente with Israel.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/qawasmeh-clan-hebron-hamas-leadership-mahmoud-abbas.html
> Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?
Absolutely not, it's wrong and ought to be immediately stopped. It's a great question I'm glad you asked, because I fully understand that it's a genuine concern so we have to take it seriously and discuss it. We can't waive it away.
But let's be very clear here, these are the statistics for rocket attacks by Hamas. Please check the link, it's a very simple chart.
Israeli civilians died in the last 10 years from rocket attacks: 28
Palestinian children died in 1 month (July 2014): 329
Palestinian civilians who died in 1 month (July 2014): 1525
Just think about that for a second. Then look at Israeli traffic casualties per WEEK, it's five. Yes, five. Every week, more people die in traffic, than civilians died from Hamas rockets in all of 2014 including this summer's bloody conflict.
Just consider that for a moment. This is not a question of merely 'defense'. It's a question of, is it okay to kill hundreds of innocent children, to prevent an annual death toll from happening that barely rivals weekly traffic casualties, when I'm not willing to stop building illegal settlements and not willing to lift illegal blockades or occupations of another land that could achieve the same goals.
Now let me be clear, every single one of those 28 Israeli deaths the past 10 years was one too many. Every single one is a tragedy I wish hadn't happened. But in my opinion it in no way can excuse such disproportionate and grotesque murdering of innocent children on such a scale.
Especially not when Israel has not exhausted all of its options yet. Under international law no country has the right to defend itself against a force that is resisting a decades long illegal occupation (now de facto annexation) of its land. This 'right to defend itself' simply does not exist. Feel free to look up the legal standard that supports it, it's not there. Israel has a right to defend itself, and it can do so by withdrawing from occupied territories, lifting an illegal blockade and engaging in genuine peace talks in support of the right to self determination of the people of Palestine. But it has continuously disrupted such talks, which isn't my opinion, it's the opinion of the entire planet, indeed including the US this last time around, hell including president of Israel Peres stating Netanyahu deliberatedly destroyed the peace deal that had already been negotiated.
Again, if someone illegally occupies part of your house, controls your doors and windows (exit/entry by land, air and water), controls your fridge (the infamous 'Palestinian diet', controls your electricity and water and energy, and announces it will build more settlements, and walks away from peace treaties or sabotages them, this country has NO right to defend itself by international law. Once it reasonably exhausts its diplomatic options (namely the lifting of illegal blockades and occupations and negotations) it has the right to use force as a final measure. You may disagree with the law, but these are the basics facts of international law. These are not controversial facts.
Scandinavia at the time (and a few centuries after) was a violent clan society. War, raids etc were what people did instead of playing football and ice hockey. And business.
The trips to (e.g.) England were business, it is documented that boats were recruited from all over Scandinavia.
The "real" Europe at the time had [to a large part] gone on beyond that stage [of clan societies].
What to learn from this is not to be neighbour with violent clan societies. Think old Scandinavia or in the present day -- Afghanistan, Somalia and eastern Iraq.
(Incidentally, Sweden has the world's largest refugee immigration per capita from exactly those places... We will see how that ends up.)
Edit: I guess the down votes are my parallel with modern clan societies? Time will tell, I hope I'm wrong.
I was talking about the destinations "visited" in West Europe by vikings at the time. That was what the quote marks indicated. (It is a bit simplified, Ireland still had partly a tribal society of course.) Sorry I was unclear.
If I should say anything else on the subject, it is that the frustration about all this, like most history, is all the things we will never know.
I read ~ 10 years ago a fascinating theory about berserkers using self suggestion and being influenced by Roman warrior cults (the Roman empire had camps quite close to Denmark a few centuries before the viking age.) It was so frustrating that we almost certainly never will know.
It is a new world after at least 1989 (probably decades older), the CIA almost only destabilize non-democratic juntas. Personally, I don't really care about the working situation for the juntas, they are generally criminal thieves that have stolen a country.
You were probably too Microsoft specific in your work environment. CVS is older than most(?) HN posters and had no locking problem. So your pain was not necessary. :-(
(The wikipedia says VSS was bought 1995, so the original product might be older?)
CVS was developed in the '80s specifically to get around the locking problem that locking (non-concurrent — that's what the C in CVS is) version control systems had.
I believe it is painful in high security organizations, by definition. You can often e.g. only use tools which are vetted and stamped OK by a complex and expensive process -- so they are old.
Imho, security is really interesting theoretically, but probably not to work with outside of the academic world.
This was propaganda from a karma 9 account. I'll touch some points but I think that there are too many fanatics on this subject, it doesn't work on HN.
(I got a couple of comments first upvoted and then down voted a bunch of points, so I guess this will go the same way.)
>>In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created.
More Jews were thrown out of the Muslim countries than Palestinians fled. (And not in a burning civil war, but from cold blooded racism.)
The possessions stolen from those Jews included land area multiple times the size of Israel.
Most of those Jews fled to Israel. So how about a reasonable view -- do a swap and call it even? The Palestinians get some of the resources stolen by their allied Muslim countries?
Why is that bad?
>>Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule.
This is in fact true now... Since most every Jew were thrown out of the Muslim world because of what some other Jews did, there are none to persecute..
>> IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs [...]
You demonise a country for what some individuals do.
What do you then say about about officially sanctioned racist hatred, copied from the Nazis?! Like the Arab countries... In state controlled media.
The previous Egyptian president spoke about the importance of teaching your children to hate Jews... And so on.
So how many hundreds of times worse is that? You're not a dishonest hypocrite with different standards for different sides, are you?
>> [Latest Gaza war]
- Started by Hamas, which also gave murderers of three children a hero status. (Note that some Israelis did a revenge murder -- and will end up in jail.)
(Also worth mentioning is how the Muslim world kept the Palestinians in camps and refused to integrate them for generations. Just to keep the hatred going. Smart, since most every other land loss from WWII is forgotten. Just a pity they destroyed so many lives to do it. Arguably, much worse than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians, even in your description...)
I don't see how you have countered anything that I have said. I think the actions of governments like Egypt's are horrible WRT the Palestinians too, but that was not the point of my post. I was responding to a racist anti-arab rant (that ended up being down-voted by the time I finished composing my response). Hasney Mubarak became an American/Israeli puppet.
As for keeping the Palestinians in refugee camps, the Palestinians have a right of return. The U.N. recognized this right decades ago. The root cause of refugees is Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing (against international law). Look for references to the "red house", to find early plans for this ethnic cleansing dating back to the founding of Israel.
As for land swap, it doesn't work that way, and I'm sure you realize this.
One bullet two kills, was not a "few individuals". And, it was only one of many slogans of the same ilk the Israeli military wore to that slaughter.
Current PM of Israel has not only said things like, "... put Palestinians on a diet." In the context of starving the civilian prisoners in the giant open air prison that is Gaza (illegal collective punishment), but also was instrumental in multiple massacres of Palestinians. How is a speech worse than actual mass murder? Read transcripts of the Knesset (Israeli legislature) to see the attacks on the non-Jewish minority-- including death threats, rape threats, etc. (yes, stated openly in the official meetings).
Started by Hamas is usually a fiction. In almost every case, go back one or two weeks more than the Israeli propaganda, and you will see Israeli aggression, Israel breaking a cease fire, Israel assassinating a politician, Israel killing a fisherman/farmer/child etc. That said, there are no innocents among those active in a battle, but the balance of power, balance of aggression, and balance of casualties is such that Israel carries the vast majority of the blame. The ratio of civilian deaths prove who is the aggressor.
It is unfortunate that Briton essentially wanted a white-ish colony in the Middle East. It is sad that most of Europe were only too happy to be rid of their Jews. It is also terrible how Jews, Romani, disabled, gays, etc. suffered under the Nazis. But, it is not fair that the indigenous Arabs of Palestine suffer for it.
"Copied from the Nazis" hmmmmm... Gaza =~ Warsaw ghetto, Organ harvesting for benefit of Jews, etc. I see your point, but it is probably not the point you meant to make.
As for antisemitism, everything is antisemitism (or self hating) in regards to criticism of Israel. Yet, antisemitism is OK when practiced by an Israeli-- the Arabs subject to oppression and massacres by Israelis _are_ Semitic people.
Israel is an imperialist enterprise, and yes 7% was bought by Jews, I said that in my original post, but the rest was stolen. It is a terrible situation that has only a couple outcomes. Some radical Jews want to see Israel's borders expanded to the biblical boarders to, in their minds, allow the return of the Messiah, some radical Christians want to support those radical Jews in the hopes that WWIII breaks out centered in Israel, in their minds, allowing the return of their Jesus, some radical Muslims want the invaders gone no matter what it takes, and will gladly give their lives (and as many of the invaders as they can take) to this end. Yet, the only solution today would be to make up (including honoring the right of return). It would be hard since the Israelis are essentially the Afrikaners of S. Africa, and worse nearly all the prime land is stolen, and some must be given back to the returning families, but if Israel were to actually become a democracy, and not what is in fact a theocracy (see Israeli laws preferential to Jews), and begin re-integrating refugees, it might be possible to overcome the other obstacles. It seems to me as uncertain as this path is, that any other path will lead to certain destruction-- a stopped up pressure cooker eventually explodes.
Organ harvesting was one doctor -- which took organs from Jews too (I think that is even against the religion). You again blame a whole country for an individuals action.
>>As for antisemitism, everything is antisemitism (or self hating) in regards to criticism of Israel.
- First you complain about Israel because of an individuals' action.
- Second, you shrug off state sanctioned racial hate propaganda, partly copied from the Nazis and partly religious?!
Talk about double standards... this literally gave me vertigo.
Interesting. The double standard I see here is yours. I had hoped I was speaking with a reasonable person (in spite of the silly ad hominem about low karma, new account; and now, this nonsense). This entire thread (all responses, including mine) should be down voted for going off the rails. To everyone else, I apologize for feeding the troll (my original response, not to bugbrother; those to bugbrother were just a futile attempt to inform an apologist for a criminal regime).
I was involved in the Israeli Security establishment for over 5 years. I never saw any ethnic cleansing, massacres, or any of the other horrid things you talk about. As a combat commander, I had to give 1hr lectures to my soldiers about ethical behavior before EVERY mission. It was crazy, and I thought it was over the top, but even during the intifada, we were held to a crazy moral standard as soldiers.
For example, the rules during my time stated that if an Arab throws a rock at you (big, heavy, can break your skull apart), you are not allowed to shoot. If they have a knife and are charging from a distance, you are still not allowed to shoot. If they have a molatov cocktail, but are at a distance where it can't hurt you, you are not allowed to shoot. If you shoot and kill in these situations, you will be tried before a military court for murder and jailed.
The Israel you talk about is an anti-semitic PR fantasy that holds no resemblance to the reality of what goes on there. Part of my job taking care of terrorists with blood on their hands that we'd arrested was to ensure they got hot bloody food while we took care of them.
Not exactly a world of massacres and ethnic cleansing. Sorry, your rant is just rhetoric.
Since the cold war, the US involvement seems to be in non-democracies exclusively. (I thought Venezuela was a case, but the page claims that wasn't proven?) [Edit: Maybe the coup against Aristide in Haiti? I don't know enough.]
Frankly, I see a big difference between on one hand a country and its population -- and on the other, a junta that has stolen a country. If such a junta is ousted it is a good thing, as long as it isn't completely fubared as in Iraq 2003 (Libya might also end up even worse than under the last pack of murdering rapists).
My main problem with the US administration right now is Obama's unwillingness to do something about Syria. Assad is no lesser murderer and torturer than IS.
This closing of the borders created a minor depression in Israel. Not something you do for fun.
The point is, if you start murdering civilians in an organized fashion it is a bit strange to claim victim status from a much milder response. E.g. when Hamas fired (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- and then complain about the return fire killing civilians!
Please, no simplified propaganda on HN.